Author Topic: Thinking about joining a small self-sufficient community in Alberta ?  (Read 8126 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aseity

  • Contributer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 0
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: to be determine
 

If you are worried about the dangerous political and socio-economic problems coming our way and you want to team up with other like-minded individuals, we are a group of libertarian-conservatives thinking about the possibility of building a small self-sufficient community in Alberta.
 

This community would put emphasis on preparedness, self-sufficiency, security, culturally compatible and trustworthy people, voluntary mutual help and bartering, common purpose and mission, nice self-sufficient off-grid homes, farming acreage, natural mountainous and forested surroundings including a large creek or pond etc…  Our common culture of liberty and morality would not be imposed on anyone but based on voluntary adherence in the values and principles of natural law (The basis of common law),
 

Community members would be selected based on their cultural compatibility, moral values, useful skills and knowledge, awareness of the grave dangers lying ahead of us and caused by a global elite, minimum acceptable net worth etc…
 
Community members would be required to live in the community full time since the main intent would be to create a “bug in” type of project as opposed to a “bug out” type of project.
 
People living in this envisioned community would own their home, land, well, garden etc... so this is definitively not a “commune” type of project.   Only common infrastructures like roads and security gates would be co-owned through and owner’s association.
 
The location has not been selected yet but we are currently thinking about locations corresponding to a 30 to 40 minute drive from a large city like Calgary or Edmonton.  If you have any ideas and any opinion concerning the best locations for this type of project, please do not hesitate to provide us with your suggestions.  If you think you might be interested in joining this community and prefer to discuss this privately, you can contact me at aseity@videotron.ca.
 
Please understand that we are only trying to get your opinions and find like-minded people who would like to participate in such a project

Thank you.

 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 02:53:25 PM by Aseity »

Offline Aseity

  • Contributer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 0
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: to be determine
Starting A "Bug-in" Community
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2014, 06:43:24 PM »
 Subject:   Thinking about joining a small self-sufficient community in Alberta ?   
 
 If you are worried about the dangerous political and socio-economic problems coming our way and you want to team up with other like-minded individuals, we are a group of libertarian-conservatives thinking about the possibility of building a small self-sufficient community in Alberta.  This community would put emphasis on preparedness, self-sufficiency, security, culturally compatible and trustworthy people, voluntary mutual help and bartering, common purpose and mission, nice self-sufficient off-grid homes, farming acreage, natural mountainous and forested surroundings including a large creek or pond etc…  Our common culture of liberty and morality would not be imposed on anyone but based on voluntary adherence in the values and principles of natural law (The basis of common law),
 
 Community members would be selected based on their cultural compatibility, moral values, useful skills and knowledge, awareness of the grave dangers lying ahead of us and caused by a global elite, minimum acceptable net worth etc…  Community members would be required to live in the community full time since the main intent would be to create a “bug in” type of project as opposed to a “bug out” type of project.  People living in this envisioned community would own their home, land, well, garden etc... so this is definitively not a “commune” type of project.   Only common infrastructures like roads and security gates would be co-owned through an owner’s association.  The location has not been selected yet but we are currently thinking about locations corresponding to a 30 to 40 minute drive from a large city like Calgary or Edmonton to allow people who work in .  If you have any ideas concerning the best locations for this type of project, please do not hesitate to provide us with your suggestions.  If you think you might be interested in joining this community and prefer to discuss this privately, you can contact me at aseity@videotron.ca    Please understand that we are only trying to get your opinions and find like-minded people who would like to participate in such a project.       
 

Offline Mountainman

  • Administrator
  • Pro Prepper
  • *****
  • Posts: 1821
  • Karma: 35
    • Mountainman's Mantra
Re: Re: Forming a group
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2014, 11:59:23 AM »
Jensen,

Sounds like you have been there and done that. ;-)


Aseity,

I will respond in more detail very soon. On an Opsec side, you may want to be a wee bit further from those urban centres.

Cheers,

Mountainman.

Offline Aseity

  • Contributer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 0
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: to be determine
Re: Re: Forming a group
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2014, 04:27:35 PM »
thank you Mountainman.  It's very nice of you. 

Yes you might be right for the distance, we thought about it but people might need to work in another place than in this project and go in town sometime. 

Waiting for your comments.

Best Regards



Offline Mountainman

  • Administrator
  • Pro Prepper
  • *****
  • Posts: 1821
  • Karma: 35
    • Mountainman's Mantra
Re: Re: Forming a group
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2014, 11:27:31 PM »
thank you Mountainman.  It's very nice of you. 

Yes you might be right for the distance, we thought about it but people might need to work in another place than in this project and go in town sometime. 

Waiting for your comments.

Best Regards




Aseity,

Sorry, had some family commitments to attend to earlier, but now I am back and can focus the proper amount of time and energy to my reply.

I support what you want to do and accomplish. I want this to be successful. I hope your core group has a detailed plan and a set of objectives to mark each accomplishment enroute to your end goal - a self-sufficient community in Alberta, populated by a group of like-minded folks.

If you have had the time to review this thread from the beginning you already know and understand, that for a community to be successful, it NEEDS many skill sets. I will not even try to list them. However, in our current economic environment, some of those who are most skilled in their area of expertise, are also lacking resources in other areas. So, some of the best people needed for the success of your community may not have the "buy in" resources needed to be considered. Likewise, someone who can bankroll the creation of a new nation may not have any useful skills for a small community......other than a large reserve of disposable income to help kick start the community. Just saying.....

LOCATION:

Now, if you have had the time to review any of the works from Mel TAPPAN, Ragnar BENSON, James Wesley RAWLES or anyone else from that catagory, you will recall they recommend being at least 2 to 3 hours drive from any major urban area. Of course, they all live/lived in the USA. For security reasons, they want a quiet, defendable place beyond the Golden Horde. That is a good reason for the distance.

But, here in Alberta, you have another challenge......land costs!!! The closer (commuting distance) to the major urban centres - Edmonton or Calgary, you are going to have to pay through the nose for a piece of land. Edmonton and area is better, as the costs are a bit lower. Around Calgary, if you missed out buying the right piece of land during the "oil bust" of the 1980's, it is unlikely to find it now. Or, if you do find it it will cost multi-millions just for the land. I am not saying it can't be done, just be aware it is going to take a serious commitment of financial resources just to secure the location.

SKILLS:

You are going to need every skill set - butcher, baker and the candlestick maker. Blacksmith. Doctor & nurses. Farmers & ranchers. Mechanics & plumbers. Welders & carpenters. Security & ditch-diggers. And everything else you can imagine from an old 1800's era town or village. Miss any and you may end up in trouble before or after a SHTF event.

OPSEC:

You have already posted a few core values that your group has. Excellent. Folks wanting to become a part of this need to know where your group will stand on certain items. Having defined values will aid your vetting process. Those who do not like those values, are unlikely to send you a request to join. That is good, you want a community of like-minded persons. But, one observation here, what if you do not get all the skills or manpower you need?? Do you water down you values or do you make other concessions?? I am just thinking out loud. I do not have the answers. But if I write the right questions now, your group will have the answer for later.

Speaking of your vetting process......and no I do not want you to breach your group's Opsec by disclosing the exact process. I hope you have had the time to develop a vetting process that is both fair and honest. Have you considered what happens if the perfect like-minded individual applies, scores well in every catagory, but when introduced to others from the group you quickly discover that they do not fit well into your group. For whatever reason there is an instant personality clash. Do you keep this person due to the skillset or resource set that they hold or do you veto their membership due to non-compatibility?? Again, I am not asking you to answer this question here, I just want you to consider this for a bit. So, your group has the answers before the question or situation arises for real.

Once, you do secure your land - I recommend for OPSEC reasons alone you do not disclose the location to anyone outside your group. You can have site maps or tabletop relief maps of the property to use when interviewing candidates, but have a site specific map with no outside coordinates or key locations. Meet folks at a "dummy" location if need be, to protect your primary location.

PHYSICAL SECURITY:

If nothing else, please, ensure you do a first class job on the site's physical security. It needs to be layered, and it needs to be done early in the site development. Your site needs to be defendable. You need to have lines of sight to know when trouble is headed your way, before they arrive. Do your security plan for the land first, and then fit in all other activities to accomodate security, not the other way around. Food and water need to be inside the walls - so's to speak.

I would be willing to assist your team in planning the site security, face-to-face. Once, you have secured your land, send my a PM or e-mail.

SANITATION:

Have a plan for dealing with sanitation. Septic fields are probably easiest to accomplish in a rural setting, however, if you are forced to have a waste-water treatment plant as part of your infrastructure, the costs go up.

Water, is even more important. Have a plan to keep your clean water, clean. Also, how will each household get their water?? Well?? Cistern?? Spring?? Surface Water?? If, at all possible, have a gravity fed water system. They are not dependent on electricity to get the water to the house.

POWER:

Is this community going to be off-grid?? Or at least partly off-grid?? Solar?? Wind?? Hydro?? Steam?? Your group will need to have a position on your collective power source(s).

COMMS:

Will your community maintain two-way communications with the outside world?? Internet?? Satcom?? Ham?? Cell?? Landline??

Even if you decide to be "quiet", you should have at least a comms monitoring station or two. Knowing what is happening in the outside world will help adjust priorities at your community. Having at least a Ham radio to call for help, should not be overlooked.

EMPLOYMENT:

All small towns go through this at one point or another. What happens if all the folks have to travel great distasnces just to earn a paycheque??

To be truly self-sufficient, you need to become a employment base, not a bedroom to another community. As you are gathering your like-minded folks and developing this community, try to decide together.....what can we do?? What can we build?? What we manufacture?? What makes us valuable to the outside world. Building the whole community around an employer, could make short and long-term sense. Just decide if you want others to know where you "build" whatever it is you build??? Of course, the "plant" could be a safe way from the distribution point. And no one is to know the "plant" location. For security reasons, of course.

Okay, I think I am out of ideas at this point. After a bit more dialogue, I may come up with more points. I hope this is helpful.

At this time, I am not in position to buy in to your community. But I really do like the concept. Having a community of like-minded individuals working toward a common goal - their collective survival during goodtimes or bad.

Keep us posted on your progress, without breaching your group Opsec policy.

Cheers,

Mountainman.

Offline NObshere

  • Our Videographers
  • Pro Preppers
  • Pro Prepper
  • *****
  • Posts: 1367
  • Karma: 24
  • Gender: Male
  • Never give in to fear
    • YouTube Channel Prepper Madness
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: Alberta
Re: Re: Forming a group
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2014, 01:07:40 AM »
thank you Mountainman.  It's very nice of you. 

Yes you might be right for the distance, we thought about it but people might need to work in another place than in this project and go in town sometime. 

Waiting for your comments.

Best Regards




I"ve managed to make quite a good living, several hours outside of cities, but that may be different for others. You can, however, create your own cottage industries, and even open your own markets. If you have the right people...The Hutterites and Amish do it, not using them as the perfect model. What model would you use for choosing the leadership of this scheme? Is this a shared investment plan? How much land do you plan on purchasing? Generally acreages are more expensive than if you buy by the quarter section. There's not much for cheap land out there jn either case. Up here, when I came out, You could buy a quarter for 30-70,000 and that was farmland. Now a quarter of swamp (muskeg) goes for 90-225,000. It may take quite a few investers... Not criticising, just pointing some small factors out. A good idea though. And yes stay further away from the cities.
Never stop...

CanAm Videographer


Offline Aseity

  • Contributer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 0
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: to be determine
Re: Re: Forming a group
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2014, 04:57:00 PM »
HI Moutainman,

Thank you very much for your comments. We will read it and get back to you as soon as possible. 

At first glance, I can tell you, we seem to think a like.

Best Regards.


Offline Jwild101

  • Campfire Member
  • VIP
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
  • Karma: 15
  • Gender: Male
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: Ontario
Re: Re: Forming a group
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2014, 09:47:18 PM »
Something guys should take into consideration...... "Don't put all your eggs in on basket"
 
In my research I have come up with over 2 dozen possible disasters that could require us to put our prepping (survival) skills to the test. Depending on what part of the country you live in some of these may or may not be a threat to you.
 
So my suggestion is, have your group members specialize in different types of disasters and have knowledge of other types. Think of your prepping skill like going to university. You major in one area and minor in another. That way you have all the bases covered. Always have a knowledge base at your disposal. If anything should happen to one member, you still not at a loss. That way "Your Asses are Always Covered" This can also apply to skill sets too. To simplify and example , your baker is also one of you blacksmiths etc.
 
Aseity...Read your ideas on group and no offence....but to me it screamed "Hippie Commune". So you might want to rethink your wording of your post. Following that idealogy under an extreme SHTF, mean utter chaos, which also means your ultimate demise. And remember ...In almost everything the key to success is .....LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION
 
The Count Down is On

Offline Aseity

  • Contributer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 0
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: to be determine
Re: Re: Forming a group
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2014, 12:56:08 PM »
 Dear Mountainman and all the others,

Thank you all for your comments.

We were wondering if it would be possible to copy your comments regarding our discussion to the following principal thread, located in the section “ CanAmPreppers » Intros » Prepper Groups. » Thinking about joining a small self-sufficient community in Alberta ?”  this will allow us and others to follow the discussion in a more constructive and adequate manner.

Once the comments would be copied, I will erase my comments in this post title “forming a group” this way all of us would not be mix up in different conversations.
 
Sorry for the inconvenient.   

By the way, we are in the process of writing an answer to all of your last comments.  We hope we can continue this very interesting conversation. 

Thank you and best regards.


Aseity.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 12:57:50 PM by Aseity »

Offline wild_E

  • Off Grid Living Mod 3 yrs now
  • Administrator
  • Pro Prepper
  • *****
  • Posts: 1510
  • Karma: 34
  • Gender: Male
  • Off Grid Mobile Adm/Mod
    • My Journey Blog
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: Ontario
Re: Re: Forming a group
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2014, 01:12:14 PM »
Asity.
Send your request directly to Mountainan.
He is an admin and will advise on your last request.
Cheers

Offline Mountainman

  • Administrator
  • Pro Prepper
  • *****
  • Posts: 1821
  • Karma: 35
    • Mountainman's Mantra
Aseity,

Ok. Today things worked better than last night. I think I have finally managed to get this right and all the posts regarding your community are now here.

Cheers,

Mountainman.

PS - Once Jackpine gets online, have him sound off in here so I know they are operational.

Offline Aseity

  • Contributer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Karma: 0
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: to be determine
 This is a message from JackPine.  I am posting his message since he is unable to register on this blog for the time being.     
 
 MountainMan, thank you very much for all the precious info.  My username will be “jackpine” once I succeed in registering on your blog.  Sorry for the delay, I could not answer sooner.  I tried to register several times but there seems to be a problem so “Aseity” will post this message for me.  Yes, we are quite aware of most aspects you mentioned.  We listened to experts like James W. Rawles for quite a while.  I can see that you have studied these topics in depth.           
 
 Concerning your first point referring to people having skills but less “buy in” power, yes, you have a very good point here.  We will probably find a way to solve that problem.  There are many solutions.  One solution could be to have small homes or even tiny homes for rent.  Another solution is to use large homes used by many people to reduce the cost. I am sure we can find many other solutions.     
 
 CONCERNING THE DISTANCE FROM A LARGE TOWN AND LAND COSTS: 
 
 This is a very important and complex topic.  We will need to discuss this very important topic in much greater depth with other experts or very knowledgeable preppers.  So far, we felt like we needed to compromise here.  Instead of trying to build a very large self-sufficient community (village/town)  far away (2-3 hours from a large town), we thought it would be much easier and more realistic to build closer to town for obvious reasons like  1. access to jobs,  2. access to services provided by a large town,  3. having to find fewer members and  4. no need to start a business inside the community.  We thought this makes the project much smaller and more realistic but of course less safe.  We know experts like James W. Rawles do not like this compromise but is it really realistic to think we can build a very large community of preppers very far away with no access to jobs often available in a large city and with difficult access to services only provided by a large city.  So far, we feel it’s more realistic to build closer a large town especially when we will not necessarily have a business inside the community that provides jobs to its members.  We do not necessarily have a very strong opinion about this and we would like to discuss this issue in further detail with you or other experts.  Living at 2-3 hours from a large town probably implies that you have to build a very large self-sufficient community (Ex. 100 to 200 preppers) with a business offering jobs to community members and this does not seem to be realistic.  This seems to be a bit too ambitious for us for the time being unless some experts convince us that this idea is realistic and doable.  If you think this is realistic and doable, let us know how you would approach this.  It seems to us like there is not enough preppers willing to make that kind of move and investment.  Has anyone done this so far?  I like the idea of a large prepper village/town far away but building such a large self-sufficient community seems out of reach or unrealistic to us at least for the time being.  We can always change our minds based on new information though.  We were thinking about building closer to town but with better security, better access to jobs and better access to resources available in a large town.  You were also mentioning land costs.  What about one hour from Calgary of Edmonton?  Do you think building an hour or so from Calgary or Edmonton might be an interesting compromise?  This is definitely something that needs to be discussed in greater depth with very knowledgeable people before making a final decision.  We should start a separate thread since this is a very complex and lengthy topic.  Would you have good articles to recommend on this topic?  There is so much to think about.  This is mind boggling. 
 
 SKILLS:
 
 You were mentioning “You are going to need every skill set - butcher, baker and the candlestick maker. Blacksmith. Doctor & nurses. Farmers & ranchers. Mechanics & plumbers. Welders & carpenters. Security & ditch-diggers. …”   

 
 Instead of trying to build a whole prepper town or village with hundreds or thousands of preppers, we were thinking about defining  prepper regions to address this problem.  For example, James W. Rawles defined a region called the American Redoubt in the USA.  We (Albertans Preppers or Canadian Preppers) should define smaller regions in Alberta or elsewhere where prepper would be encouraged to go so that battering between preppers becomes much easier.  If many influential preppers would promote such an idea, it might become possible.  This would allow smaller prepper communities like ours and even individuals to concentrate on doing their own thing but still have access to many services provided by other preppers living locally in this same “prepper region”.   What do you think about this idea?  Are there any regions of self-sufficient preppers already defined in Alberta or elsewhere in Canada?     
 
 OPSEC :
 
 You were asking,  “what if you do not get all the skills or manpower you need?  Do you water down you values or do you make other concessions?”    We believe morality, values, character, culture and the ability and will to learn comes first.  We believe it is easier to train someone to become skillful in a specific area but that is debatable.  The probability of obtaining a high level of trust and friendship between members is greatly improved when people are moral and culturally compatible.  We will first try to find people who are moral and with the right values and culture and then train them if they don’t possess all the right skills.  I believe this is what many experts recommend.  What is your opinion about this?       
 
 You were asking what happens when you find out a person does not fit in the group anymore.  We will obviously have to define a process to address this kind of issue.  This process should be known upfront and agreed by every community member.  Every member has to sign a contract when he or she joins the community and this process should be clearly defined in the contract.  I guess this process will initially describe how a mediator will try to work things out between community members, in the end, if a majority of members still reject a particular member, the community will have to purchase the property back at market value and the individual or family will have to leave the community as described in the contract.  We will need to discuss this with a lawyer and determine how our contract can address this issue. 
       
 PHYSICAL SECURITY
 
 Yes, I will contact you once the land is secured.   In the meantime, would you have good articles or books to recommend? 

COMM
 
 About whether to stay silent or not, we have not given this aspect much taught yet. 
For sure, HAM Radio would be used in times of crisis.  We sure would like to better understand the implications of “staying silent” here.  So far, we assume people will have cell phones, the Internet etc… while the situation is normal.  I guess, during a crisis, staying quiet would be the way to go except for some sporadic use of HAM radio.  If you have any good articles and websites on this topic, they sure would be useful.   
Concerning all the other aspects you were mentioning, yes, we are quite aware about all these topics.  We are less knowledgeable about how to implement security, choosing the right piece of land, how to structure the community legally and operationally and about whether to stay silent or not etc…  If you have useful articles, videos, website links etc… on these topics, I would sure be very interested to lean more on these topics.   You have definitely raised many good points which should correspond to new topics to be discussed in greater detail. 
 
 Thank you very much for your input and/or recommendations,
 
 JackPine   
 

Offline jackpine

  • Contributer
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: 0
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: TBD
 NObshere,
 
 Thanks for your input.  Starting a business is probably a must especially for those who are far away from a large city and want to build a big prepper village.  Having jobs available onsite can sure help in attracting a lot of people especially when you reside far away.  The two seems to go together (Large Prepper village and business).  It all depends on what we want to do exactly.  Like I mentioned earlier, so far, we haven’t given much thought about trying to build a big prepper village with a business.  This seems a bit too overwhelming for the time being.  We are currently thinking about a smaller community closer to town and no need to start a business.  We are currently thinking about compromising on this aspect but is this a good idea or is this suicidal?  That remains to be discussed in greater detail since this is a very important decision.  Also, starting a successful business is not that easy and it may fail (90 % of new businesses fail so what happens when the business fails?).  We need to make a very important decision here.  I guess the question is "Can we make a compromize on the distance or is this unacceptable to most preppers?".  Is it acceptable or even preferable to most preppers to build closer to town (ex. 1 hour or less)?.  I guess this is a whole new topic all by itself and we should probably start a new topic on this.  There is also the idea of defining a prepper region.   
 
 Why not define a "prepper region" so that smaller communities and individuals can build their own thing without having to start a business and sign a contract with other preppers.  As you know, James W. Rawles proposed the region called the “American Redoubt”.  Why not define a prepper region in Alberta where preppers are encouraged to go in order to make battering and starting preppers businesses a whole lot easier.  I guess this is also a whole new topic all by itself and we should probably start a new topic on this too.       
You were asking about the leadership model.  We have very conventional thinking about this.  We are currently thinking that initially, the developer (A company owned by the initial investors) owns most of the community and leads the community.  Once 80% of the project is sold, the developer company gets out and the owner’s association takes over the responsibility of leading and administering the community based on the community’s constitution.  Most preppers are expected to buy their own piece of land and build their own homes based on predefined rules.  The community would have its own constitution or contract which holds everything together legally.  This constitution or contract defines the most important aspects of the community and is crucial to it's success.  Members would be required to sign this constitution or contract with the community.    The home owners would have a number of votes corresponding to their investment in the community and/or special recognized worth to the community (Special voting power)  (Ex. 1 vote per dollar invested + recognized worth/votes).  Time invested without compensation could also be given a corresponding dollar value/voting power when the service is not paid directly.  An owners association would have to be formed.  The owners, members of the community and special voters will vote to elect a president, vice-persident and secretary yearly.  I guess this is also a whole new topic all by itself and we should probably start a new topic on this too.  What are the best models for survival retreats?       
 You were asking how much land do we plan to purchase.  We are currently thinking about purchasing 100 acres or more depending on the size of the community and number of homes.  Each home would have between 1 and 3 acres of land.   
 
 Please keep in mind that this project is only in its preliminary design phase.  Everything is still being discussed and open for debate.       

Offline jackpine

  • Contributer
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: 0
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: TBD
Jwild101,

Thanks for your comment.  You were mentioning that the text screams "Hippie Commune" to you.  We really don't understand why you get that impression.  Could you explain what exactly made you think that this community could be a commune?  We think that the label "Libertarian-conservative" comes in total contradiction to what a "hippie commune" is.  Have you ever seen a libertarian-conservative hippie.  I bet there isn't a single one in the whole world.   :)   

In our minds, libertarian-conservatism means true conservatism or old conservatism.  For example, the Conservative Party of Canada is neo-conservatism (A blend of conservatism and socialism).  So this true conservatism (libertarian-conservatism) is based on individual rights and liberties, morality based on natural law or judeo-christian values and principles if you are a believer in God, property rights, right to free speech, righ to protect yourself with firearms and other weapens etc... 

Also, the fact that people are expected to own their own property makes it very clear that this could not possibly be a commune.  These details come into total contradiction with the world of hippies living in a commune and/or socialists/communists. 

Could you explain in greater detail what made you think that this could be a commune?

If we understand what you mean, maybe we will change the text in the future. 

Thanks in advance for your help.  I sure would like to know what's wrong with this text.     
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 05:15:14 PM by jackpine »

Offline Mountainman

  • Administrator
  • Pro Prepper
  • *****
  • Posts: 1821
  • Karma: 35
    • Mountainman's Mantra
Jackpine & Aseity,

Thanks for your response. Very informative. Jackpine, your log-in with CanAm Preppers should be working.

As for starting another thread to discuss specifics, I am not sure that is really necessary. By keeping all the discussion on this thread, it may help those trying to decide to contact you. They will be able to follow all the thinking and planning going into this project. If they are interested, they will read a post, if not they will skip to the posts that they are interested in.

You had a slew of questions back at me and I will do my best to reply. I have a working knowledge of many things, but I am not bold enough to claim myself an expert. However, I have written a book on planning a family evacuation due natural or man-made causes. The G.O.O.D. Plan - Get Out Of Dodge. And a blog that deals with my book.

My other blog Mountainman's Mantra has some ideas about community and long term camping, as well as, other ideas.

I will attempt you list in reverse order:

COMMS:

Staying silent, means you are cutoff from society. Thus no powerlines, no phonelines and no gaslines to follow right to your village/community. From a security point-of-view, this is wise. You may be able to access the world via SATCOM, satellite communications - expensive and someone will know you are there, at least in the beginning. So, the largest implication to being silent, during a general collapse of society is you will not be found first by the hungry masses. Time allows two major advantages, one if enough time passes, if there is a "die-off" due to disease or lack of food, there will be less people looking for you. Second, you will have more time to become a community and a team. Working together for your collective strength and survival. Until an event of this magnitude occurs, few will be truly ready. The best you can hope for is to survive the first three months without aid, and hopefully build what you need to survive longer. Without some sort of structure in place before the event a lot of time & energy will be wasted/expended trying to establish leadership in a group. To be avoided this must be planned for and implemented at the start of the community/group.

PHYSICAL SECURITY:

To prepare for a mass chaos event, the best lessons on security will come from the past. Think forts and fortresses. Earth-berm castles. Moats. Ditches. Trenches. Fences. Even look at Parks Canada website for images of the forts that were built in Canada before the 1800's, in Nova Scotia and New Bruinswick. Also, look at the Vikings. How did they setup their villages???

As for modern security.....any military manual on small unit operations or guerella warfare, should help understand what the military mind thinks is important for assymetrical warfare. Books you may find interesting may include: The Complete Manual of Corporate & Industrial Security by Russell L. BINTLIFF and Risk Analysis & The Security Survey by James F. BRODER. And of course, Sun TZU's The Art of War, any of the short versions or the long version translated by Ralph D. SAWYER.

But, you should be thinking layers. You should be thinking security without electricity or technology to help. If you have power and tech, use it to your advantage to fortify your layers, but not to replace layers that may disappear with the loss of electricity.

OPSEC:

I, understand your thought process and wanting to seek contracts and lawyers. I dislike and distrust lawyers, they are part of what is wrong in our world today. I would encourage an established and posted set of values and codes all members are expected to live by. The simpler the better. If you can reach an agreement by looking a man(or woman) in the eyes and complete the transaction with a firm handshake, you may build a stronger community. That takes trust and honesty. Can you trust a person who can only offer a sweaty, jellyfish handshake? ???

Just my opinion of course.

SKILLS:

Create a "prepper" region not just a single community. I do not have an issue with that. In fact, most everyone on here (CanAm Preppers dot net) is currently working towards networking with enough like-minded folks to have the larger prepared community. Problem is, we are too few, too far apart. But you are thinking in the right direction. How do we encourage a concentration of prepared peoples to specific geographical regions to aid in barter and trade??? This is a double edge sword. That which makes it easier for us also makes it easier for TPTB to isolate and eliminate. Be careful what you wish for, you might say. But, multiple self-sufficient communities or villages could be possible. Most remote areas are generally prepared. They have to be, because they regularly get cutoff from the shopping market due to winter weather. Like Newfoundland, Cape Breton Island and the North.

My recommendations for all skills is not an exaggeration. It is survival of society. If you have basic skills in all areas and disease takes out a large city, you will need the right skills to put that city's infrastructure back online. If you only have a medic, farmers and soldiers, you will be able to survive, however, you might not be able to immediately recover once the danger has passed/past.

In a major event, knowledge will have value we do not appreciate today. Again, this is just my opinion. If you are able to ally your group/community with others so you are compatible and cooperative before an event then it would seem reasonable that post-event such behaviour would continue. It is all about networking now, when we have the assistance of the net to make the right connections.

DISTANCE FROM URBAN CENTRE'S:

You are familiar with RAWLES, so suffice it to say, you have heard his reasoning for the space between retreat and urban centres. His logic follows that you want to be too far for the average person to comfortably walk to your retreat. They also work on the premise that most will live and work in an urban centre and then "bugout" to the retreat. As you are trying to create a village to live and work from, for most members, the distance objective may be flexible.

Do not get caught up in the,"we can't build a whole town around a business" type mindset. Use the "if we build it, they will come" mindset instead. First think about what anybody or everybody could use, now or later??? This may help narrow your choices to explore.

For arguement sake, lets look at a ranch operation - be it cattle, buffalo, hogs, chickens, rabbits or fish. These require land, animals, and people to be successful. You could very easily, establish a ranching operation that employs every member of your community onsite or transporting your product to market. Ranches were once known to be small cities, in the Old West. You need enough land to pasture your animals, enough land to house your staff and their families, you need a school to treach the children until they are old enough to work. You need a medical centre to treat injuries or deliver babies. You need a place to gather as a community, as well as, a place to worship, celebrate life, join in marriage and to remember a life lived well. You need enough land to grow the food to feed the staff and their families. You will need barns, shops and blacksmith/welder to fix things when they break. Likewise, you will need looms and sewing machines to create and repair clothing. A job for everyone, and no job is too small or too unimportant. Unless, the whole works, then it will all eventually fail.

Well, I have run out of time today. I will check back on this topic again.

Cheers,

Mountainman.


« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 07:07:29 PM by Mountainman »

Offline Mountainman

  • Administrator
  • Pro Prepper
  • *****
  • Posts: 1821
  • Karma: 35
    • Mountainman's Mantra
Jackpine,

In your reply above you state you are thinking in the 100+ acres for your village/community. At 3 acres per homestead, you can host about 33 homes sites. With an average of 4 persons per home that is around 132 residents onsite.

Now if you follow the model of some of the city neighbourhood models and put a simple earth, sod covered berm around the community in the form of a sound barrier that is about roof level with the homes you will achieve two objectives immediately.

One, you define your perimeter. And by having the berm covered in a grass type covering it may also blend in with the surroundings. Thus from a far, the village inside may pass being noticed, especially if the sound barrier is contoured to look like a series of prairie hills, rolling along. Try to avoid hard lines and shapes that arestraight, squares or triangles. These scream man-made.

Second, you can establish whether the sound barrier has one, two or four gates/entrances/exits. These become control points.

By having clear lines of sight from the top of the berm, you also gain the atvantage of establishing OP's/Lp's that will blend in. These posts will be part of your early warning system.

A section of land may be a good goal. (160 acres x 4 = 640 acres). With a full section you may be able to establish a village site inside the walls and have pasture and fields outside the walls. Depending on the height of your earth berm walls, these fields will provide even more line of sight.

And when sellecting your land, do not overlook you needs for water - surface, sub-surface and precipitation.

That is all for now,

MM.

Offline jackpine

  • Contributer
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: 0
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: TBD
MountainMan,

Thank you MountainMan for all this very usefull information. 

Offline wild_E

  • Off Grid Living Mod 3 yrs now
  • Administrator
  • Pro Prepper
  • *****
  • Posts: 1510
  • Karma: 34
  • Gender: Male
  • Off Grid Mobile Adm/Mod
    • My Journey Blog
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: Ontario
I was wondering why you are picking Alberta as your destination? Would Northern Ontario or especially Quebec be much closer?

Offline NObshere

  • Our Videographers
  • Pro Preppers
  • Pro Prepper
  • *****
  • Posts: 1367
  • Karma: 24
  • Gender: Male
  • Never give in to fear
    • YouTube Channel Prepper Madness
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: Alberta
NObshere,
 
 Thanks for your input.  Starting a business is probably a must especially for those who are far away from a large city and want to build a big prepper village.  Having jobs available onsite can sure help in attracting a lot of people especially when you reside far away.  The two seems to go together (Large Prepper village and business).  It all depends on what we want to do exactly.  Like I mentioned earlier, so far, we haven’t given much thought about trying to build a big prepper village with a business.  This seems a bit too overwhelming for the time being.  We are currently thinking about a smaller community closer to town and no need to start a business.  We are currently thinking about compromising on this aspect but is this a good idea or is this suicidal?  That remains to be discussed in greater detail since this is a very important decision.  Also, starting a successful business is not that easy and it may fail (90 % of new businesses fail so what happens when the business fails?).  We need to make a very important decision here.  I guess the question is "Can we make a compromize on the distance or is this unacceptable to most preppers?".  Is it acceptable or even preferable to most preppers to build closer to town (ex. 1 hour or less)?.  I guess this is a whole new topic all by itself and we should probably start a new topic on this.  There is also the idea of defining a prepper region.   
 
 Why not define a "prepper region" so that smaller communities and individuals can build their own thing without having to start a business and sign a contract with other preppers.  As you know, James W. Rawles proposed the region called the “American Redoubt”.  Why not define a prepper region in Alberta where preppers are encouraged to go in order to make battering and starting preppers businesses a whole lot easier.  I guess this is also a whole new topic all by itself and we should probably start a new topic on this too.       
You were asking about the leadership model.  We have very conventional thinking about this.  We are currently thinking that initially, the developer (A company owned by the initial investors) owns most of the community and leads the community.  Once 80% of the project is sold, the developer company gets out and the owner’s association takes over the responsibility of leading and administering the community based on the community’s constitution.  Most preppers are expected to buy their own piece of land and build their own homes based on predefined rules.  The community would have its own constitution or contract which holds everything together legally.  This constitution or contract defines the most important aspects of the community and is crucial to it's success.  Members would be required to sign this constitution or contract with the community.    The home owners would have a number of votes corresponding to their investment in the community and/or special recognized worth to the community (Special voting power)  (Ex. 1 vote per dollar invested + recognized worth/votes).  Time invested without compensation could also be given a corresponding dollar value/voting power when the service is not paid directly.  An owners association would have to be formed.  The owners, members of the community and special voters will vote to elect a president, vice-persident and secretary yearly.  I guess this is also a whole new topic all by itself and we should probably start a new topic on this too.  What are the best models for survival retreats?       
 You were asking how much land do we plan to purchase.  We are currently thinking about purchasing 100 acres or more depending on the size of the community and number of homes.  Each home would have between 1 and 3 acres of land.   
 
 Please keep in mind that this project is only in its preliminary design phase.  Everything is still being discussed and open for debate.       

A small suggestion , if I may, is to discreetly buy a parcel of land. Say for arguments sake, at least a half section of developed/undeveloped farmland. Register this as a farm, many tax and fuel benefits, run it as a farm. This keeps you from being flagged in a community. Network with other like minded folks, and have the community pre'organized and ready to go to. This would mean disaster relief, for those within the network, and a base point for skill developement on weekends for those further away. When I say skill developement I"m talking about learning the how to's of the basic and advanced skills needed to run a farm. Not militaristic training, that's up to the individuals involved, and is a trait that I find most disturbing that is concentrated on much to extremes. You may run your business(s) through the farm. Some suggestions, again if I may, are gravel hauling (local) small backhoe and bobcat services, welding, believe it or not a very lucrative business is making hydraulic hoses with fittings. Income from these small business ventures can then be used to invest in the community. This sort of model can be used, with a lot of determination and hard work, to quickly pay for the land. After the land is payed for to a reasonable level, then start moving in a few more folks to the AREA. While I realize fully that this sort of venture is not all rainbows and candy canes, it can be done. Take care out there. PS if you see a parcel of land on the internet that you may be interested in contact me through a PM and I can take a closer look at it, or have someone else do it. I have worked in pretty much every part of Alberta, from the south to the north, and many points in between.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 02:40:28 PM by NObshere »
Never stop...

CanAm Videographer


Offline jackpine

  • Contributer
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: 0
  • New Member
  • Country: Canada
  • Location: TBD
 Wild_E,
 
 You were asking "Why Alberta amongst all Canadian provinces?".   
 
 Thank you very much Wild_E for asking this very important question.  We believe this is a very important point and something that is crucial to the success of this libertarian-conservative prepper community.  If you read the initial post very carefully, you will notice that the answer to your question is partly answered within the original post but this may not be obvious to most people so thanks again for asking this very important question. 
 
 You will recall that the initial post talks about the importance of building a community of "like-minded preppers".  As most experts in this field will tell you, we also believe that being "like-minded" also implies that community members should have a common culture based on "True Conservatism" or "Libertarian-Conservatism" which is the basis of common law with all its values and principles which are in total opposition to progressivism/socialism/communism).  It is obvious to most libertarian-conservative preppers like us that progressives/socialists/communists have an incompatible worldview.  These two groups really don't get along very well because these two cultures or ideologies are in fact incompatible with one another.  For example, progressives think they have a right to other’s people money when they believe that they have a right to free education, free healthcare, free everything etc…) and true conservatives believe having a right to other people's money is a crime so its easy to see the great incompatibility between these two very different cultures/ideologies.  Also, true conservatives like us believe that this “right to free everything” is a very manipulative tool used by the elite to manipulate, endoctrinate and control society.  The ruling elite use our medias and schools to indoctrinate everyone with statist/progressive/socialist/communist/neo-conservative propagandas.  For the success of such a conservative prepper community, it is important to make sure that people are ideologically and/or culturally compatible so that community members can develop a high level of trust and friendship.   
 
 We believe that community members can only attain a high level of trust and a strong sense of belonging when they are truly "like minded" in the sense that they share a common culture based on values and principles they all deeply respect and adhere to. 
 
 Now, you were asking “why is Alberta being chosen amongst all Canadian provinces?”.  Well, it’s obviously because Alberta is the province that is mostly compatible with true conservatism (Libertarian-Conservatism).  This is the province where you will find more libertarian-conservatives preppers than anywhere else in Canada.  Alberta is one of the most conservative province/state in all of North-America.  The Fraser Institute gives Alberta its best “economic liberty” rating in all of North-America.       
 
 Also, we consider that the Wildrose Party of Alberta currently leading in the polls is the only provincial political party in Canada which is grounded in truth, morality, common sense and mostly respects libertarian-conservative values and principles including individual rights and liberties like strong private property rights, liberty of speech, liberty to protect yourself, lower taxation and regulations etc...   
 
 Chosing Alberta is very important if you are serious about protecting yourself politically, economically, ideologically, culturally etc.  People have to understand that the western world has been attacked with progressive/communist and neo-conservative propagandas for many decades.  True conservatives understand that an elite has been trying to completly destroy our conservative western way of life based on individual rights and liberties in order to get more power and more money for itself.  We believe this elite has been slowly "progressing" towards a more dictatorial or totalitarian regime for many decades. 
 
 Alberta, especially because of the existence of the Wildrose Party is the Canadian province offering to best protection politically, economically, ideologically, culturally etc...  According to Joel Skousen and many other experts, Alberta offers the best chances for survival in Canada.  (See book Strategic Relocation by Joel Skousen). 
 
 As mentioned by many survivalist experts like James W. Rawles, Joel Skousen and many others, provinces that are left-leaning politically should be avoided as much as possible since the fundamental problem in the western world right now is mostly related to a lack of morality, neo-conservative and progressive propagandas and some multi-nationals controlled by leaders having psychopathic behaviors.  Lack of morality, progressivism, neo-conservatism and a corrupt elite are the main reasons why the western world is in such a deep mess right now.  Alberta is one of the best places right now to protect yourself against all these threats.  This is why it is so important that people need to wake up fast and understand what has been really going on in the western world for the past decades.  Note that the American Redoubt region in the USA is based on a similar logic.  Note that morality is not necessary related to religion.  We fell, it is perfectly fine and acceptable to be moral (based on natural law) but not necessarely very religious although judeo-christian religions are perfectly fine too and compatible with natural law.               
 
 I hope you can see why Alberta is such an important choice for like-minded people like us wanting to protect ourselves politically, culturally, ideologically, economically etc…   
 
 This is why Alberta is so important for our libertarian-conservative prepper community.
Canadian province like Quebec and Ontario are amongst the most corrupt/ progressive/socialist/communist/neo-conservative provinces/states in all of North-America and should avoided like the plague if you are a true libertarian-conservative prepper who is serious about protecting yourself politically, economically and culturally including your individual rights and liberties like freedom of Speech, property rights, freedom to protect yourself etc…).  Alberta and many other North-American conservative states have a much better chance of fighting against and escaping the very oppressive and dictatorial wave of taxation, laws and regulations coming our way (Ex. United Nations' opressive/dictatorial Agenda 21 laws and regulations).  Prepping and self-sufficiency is also very popular in Alberta and therefore this is also an important factor when trying to recruit the right kind of preppers/survivalists.           
 
Here’s an excellent article for serious libertarian-conservative preppers who want to select the best Canadian province to protect themselves and their conservative heritage/culture, their individual rights and liberties etc…  Guess what?  The author considers Alberta to be the best Canadian province for libertarian-conservative preppers.
 
Article:  Advice To Survivalists - Consider Relocating to Canada, Part III: The Western Provinces: Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba

Click on following Link:  http://disasterandemergencysurvival.com/archives/advice-to-survivalists-consider-relocating-to-canada-part-iii-the-western-provinces-alberta-saskatchewan-and-manitoba

Economic freedom is also big in Alberta
. The Daily Caller, citing a study by the Fraser Institute, The Economic Freedom of North America 2012, found at www.economicfreedom.org/2012/11/28/economic-freedom-of-north-america-2012/  noted that “Canadian provinces now lead US states in average economic freedom, with the provincial average at 6.8 compared to 6.7 out of 10 for US states,” with Alberta the most economically free state or province in North America (followed by Delaware, Saskatchewan, Texas and then Nevada.  Issues examined in this report included size of government, discriminatory taxation, labour market freedom, regulation of credit, regulation of business, the legal system and property rights. Interestingly, this same study concludes the eastern province of Prince Edward Island is the least free in North America. (Note: this article indicates the U.S. states with the highest levels of freedom include Wyoming, Texas, Nevada, Colorado, South Dakota, Illinois, Nebraska and Utah). - See more at: http://disasterandemergencysurvival.com/archives/advice-to-survivalists-consider-relocating-to-canada-part-iii-the-western-provinces-alberta-saskatchewan-and-manitoba#sthash.t7IJpBl9.dpuf   
 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 10:18:59 PM by jackpine »