General => General Chat => Topic started by: zeker on April 08, 2014, 07:37:45 AM

Title: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 08, 2014, 07:37:45 AM
I havent really heard alot about this until recently, but it sure seems to be set up with overpowering and complete compliance, in demand.
looking at the "who owns the land? state or fed?" issue this man seems to have some support and possibly some historical foothold.
just one man who stopped and said. "thats too far"
Feds, Nevada rancher facing off over public lands   <blockquote>Posted: Apr 04, 2014 5:52 PM PST Updated: Apr 05, 2014 2:58 PM PST

BUNKERVILLE, Nev. -- Dozens of armed federal officers are preparing for a showdown with a Nevada cattle rancher regarded by some as an outlaw and a hero by others.

Rangers and agents from several federal agencies have surrounded a 600,000-acre section of public land and are preparing to move against rancher Cliven Bundy whose cattle have been grazing illegally for the past 20 years.

"This is the freedom we have in America right now. You got to have your freedom inside that fence there," Bundy said.

Bunkerville rancher Cliven Bundy thinks the federal government has overplayed its hand in preparing to round up his cattle.

Example, there are two fenced spots where the public will be allowed to protest the roundup. A sign inside the fence shows how some people feel about a First Amendment zone.

During the I-Team's tour with Bundy, a passer-by stopped to offer encouragement.

"I'm one of your neighbors. I get to look at that every day of my life. Hang in there my friend," his neighbor said.

"This has become a police state, and this is an example of it right here," Bundy said.

Miles away, just off the interstate, another fenced area is the where media are allowed. Armed agents in trucks form a wall to prevent anyone from approaching what resembles a military staging area, the heart of the Bundy roundup operation.

More rangers sit at every road leading into the 600,0000-acres Gold Butte area to prevent the general public from coming in.

"With all these rangers and all this force that is out here, they are only after one man right now. They are after Cliven Bundy. Whether they want to incarcerate me or whether they want to shoot me in the back, they are after me. But that is not all that is at stake here. Your liberty and freedom is at stake," Bundy said.

Bundy has had a long time to sharpen his message. The fight has been building since 1993, when the Bureau of Land Management changed grazing rules for Gold Butte to protect the endangered desert tortoise.

Bundy refused to go along and stopped paying his fees. Since then, the BLM and federal courts have ordered him to stop letting his cattle roam throughout Gold Butte, and he has ignored the orders because he does not recognize federal authority over the land.

"My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley ever since 1877. All these rights I claim have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and water. I have been here longer. My rights are before the BLM even existed," Bundy said.

The Bundy family was already ranching here long before the Department of Interior was born, and long before tortoises were protected. But federal courts say he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. BLM has long sidestepped the fight in part because of concerns about what might happen, if it tried to round up his 500 or so cattle that even now are grazing on forbidden public lands.

Bundy says he has always been willing to pay fees but not if it helps to cut his own throat.

"I got no problem with that. I've tried to pay it to Nevada state, to Clark County. They have some of my money in their coffers right now but I'm not going to pay money for the wrong landlord, and I am not going to pay my money to BLM to manage me out of business," Bundy said, "The federal government has seized Nevada's sovereignty, Nevada's statehood. They have seized Nevada's laws and our public land. We have no access to our public land and that is only a little bit of it."

Critics say Bundy is being arrogant and that his cattle have caused irreparable harm to Gold Butte's fragile environment.

Environmentalists forced BLM's hand by threatening to sue in federal court. The bureau will pay nearly a $1 million to a private contractor to round up Bundy's cows, but with dozens of government agents positioned all around the area for what might take weeks or even months, the true cost could be much higher.

Bundy's cowhands have time to kill because they are prohibited from heading out to work their cattle. And soon enough, there could be no cattle left. The BLM plans to sell off Bundy's herd. Bundy stops short of saying how far he is willing to take it.

"I've fought this thing legally. I've fought it politically. I've fought it through the media. and I will fight it on the ground if I have to," Bundy said.

The I-Team has been asking to speak with Cliven Bundy for more than two years. He told the I-Team that while he agreed to speak to other media, he intended to save us until the end, and that could come soon.

The BLM won't say exactly when the roundup will begin but it could happen as soon as this weekend. (

( </blockquote></blockquote>
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 08, 2014, 07:47:07 AM
the feds giving tiny "freedom of speech", areas, is laffable. is not the whole country, free to speak?  apparently not..
 on one hand i,m thinking.. well the courts have ruled, at least twice... but on the other hand, how often do the courts rule against their masters? and if a judge starts to lean toward "the other side", well, we just gonna  fix that.
supreme court justice, roberts, comes to mind.
obamacare became law of the land with the nod of his head.
Title: this is gaining legs. it grows. cockroaches dont like spotlights
Post by: zeker on April 10, 2014, 07:29:13 PM
April 10th, 2014Coalition of Western State Legislators, Sheriffs, and Veterans Stand Vigil in Support of Embattled Nevada Rancher, Cliven Bundy ‘To Prevent Another Ruby Ridge or Waco” (
Share on facebookShare on twitterShare on emailShare on printMore Sharing Services324 ( </body> Press release:
Coalition of Western State Legislators, Sheriffs, and Veterans Stand Vigil in Support of Embattled Nevada Rancher, Cliven Bundy ‘To Prevent Another Ruby Ridge or Waco”
A Delegation of state legislators, lead by Washington State Representative Matt Shea, along with a  delegation of current serving Sheriffs, lead by Sheriff Richard Mack of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association, and military and police members of Oath Keepers, are converging on the site of a stand-off between federal law enforcement and Nevada Rancher Cliven Bundy, to prevent bloodshed and to stand in defense of hardworking rural Americans who are under assault by a runaway federal government.
LAS VEGAS, NV, April 10, 2014
The Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association (, led by retired Arizona Sheriff Richard Mack, and the Oath Keepers organization ( ( are assisting Washington State Representative Matt Shea in organizing a delegation of current serving Western state legislators and Sheriffs to travel to the site of a tense stand-off between Bunkerville, Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM).  The delegation is traveling to Nevada to support a coalition of current serving Nevada legislators being organized by Nevada State Assemblywoman Michele Fiore, of Las Vegas, to stand vigil at the Bundy ranch to prevent Federal Government provocation of violence resulting in another Ruby Ridge or Waco type incident.  They also hope that their example of oath-sworn public servants defending the rights of the people will prompt Clark County, Nevada Sheriff Douglas Gillespie and Nevada Governor Brian Sandoval to honor their oaths of office by taking real action to defend the rights of the Bundy family, the rights of all Nevadans, and the sovereignty of the State of Nevada.
Yesterday, April 9, 2014, Nevada State Assemblywoman Michele Fiore served the first watch in this vigil shortly after Cliven Bundy’s son, Ammon Bundy, was tazered by BLM “Rangers” during a heated confrontation.  The video of that confrontation can be seen here:

The courage and resolve displayed by Ammon Bundy and his relatives is inspiring, and may well go down in history as a watershed moment – a turning of the tide.  But the above video also amply demonstrates the heavy-handed behavior of the BLM that risks escalating an already volatile situation into open bloodshed, that, once begun, may spiral out of anyone’s control.
It is necessary that current serving public servants step in-between the protesters and the BLM, to protect the rights of the people and to prevent violence against them by the militarized federal law enforcement that are massing near the ranch to continue the forced confiscation (theft) of  Bundy’s cattle, while they also restrict all access to huge tracts of public land, and attempt to restrict the free speech of protesters with their absurd “First Amendment Area” (which the protesters are ignoring, to their honor).
The Oath Keepers organization, comprised of 40,000 current serving and former military, police, and first responders, is also calling on its members and all other patriotic Americans to join the vigil at the Bundy ranch under the leadership of the current serving legislators and sheriffs.  The goal is to have at least one current serving state legislator and at least one sheriff on the ground at all times until this is over.  And they will be backed by a large number of military and police veterans, as well as dedicated patriotic Americans from all walks of life, to interpose and defend the rights of the protesters and to keep an eye on the actions of the BLM and any other federal law enforcement present, to prevent a recurrence of the horrid abuses seen at Ruby Ridge and Waco, and to hopefully pressure the Clark County Sheriff and the Nevada Governor to step up and do their constitutional duty.
Regardless, please tell everyone you know to be praying for a peaceful resolution to this situation and for the safety of the brave patriots headed there and on the ground there right now.
As Assemblywoman Fiore said yesterday during the launch of her vigil, “we are here because the Governor is not.” And she will remain there until Governor Sandoval steps up to do his job, by defending the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Nevada, as he swore to do when he took office.  And Assemblywoman Fiore will not stand alone.  Other brave public servants will honor their oaths by standing with her, and there are thousands of Americans now on their way to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with them.    Governor Sandoval did at least, finally, state the following:
“Most disturbing to me is the BLM’s establishment of a ‘First Amendment Area’ that tramples upon Nevadans’ fundamental rights under the U.S. Constitution. To that end, I have advised the BLM that such conduct is offensive to me and countless others and that the ‘First Amendment Area’ should be dismantled immediately. No cow justifies the atmosphere of intimidation which currently exists nor the limitation of constitutional rights that are sacred to all Nevadans. The BLM needs to reconsider its approach to this matter and act accordingly.”
But the Governor needs to take the next step and go there in person, as is his duty, and order the Nevada Highway Patrol to actively interpose and stand between the people and an out of control BLM, to make sure the BLM actually reconsiders its approach to this matter and acts accordingly.  And he needs to speak out directly on the issue of federal subversion of what were supposed to be state lands, and the intentional destruction of rural America.  Silence in the face of tyranny implies consent.   Governor Sandoval needs to be sure he is not silent.
This is not about cattle.  This is about power, and the trampling of rights.  It’s about a systemic power grab and abuse of power by the federal government as it runs roughshod over the rights of honest, hard-working rural Americans and over the rights of all the Western states.  This is not an isolated incident.  It is but the latest in a long train of abuses aimed at subjecting rural Americans to absolute despotism while destroying the property rights, economy, and independence of the rural West, in particular, and eventually wiping out all of rural America.  This is an attack on all of the West, which is why patriotic legislators and lawmen from all over the West are answering the call to defend it.
And it is not just ranching that is under attack.  It is also mining, farming, logging, fishing, oil and gas, and any other industry that uses natural resources or the land.   This is a full spectrum, frontal assault on the rural West.   Ultimately, it is about bankrupting and impoverishing independent rural Americans to bring on a planned depopulation of the West.
This is truly a range war, and it is being waged by all three branches of the federal government, including complicit federal judges who “make it legal” through their willful rulings that strip away any meaningful redress or shelter for ranchers and farmers who have worked the land for generations only to now be told that they can no longer do so because of one endangered species or another.  Entire regions of the West are being shut down and impoverished using this tactic.
In this case, the Bundy family has run cattle on that same range since 1877 and they used to have fifty-two neighboring ranchers who did the same.  Now, using the Desert Tortoise as the weapon of choice, the federal government has run all the other ranchers in Clark County, Nevada out of business, and Cliven Bundy truly is the last man standing.   And it is also about all Nevadans being “prohibited” from using their own “Public Land” and the fact that the Feds were imposing their will over the state and it’s people at gun-point.
Unless We the People begin to take a meaningful stand now, in full support of our patriotic state public servants who are willing to lead us, the domestic enemies of the Constitution will not stop until the West is a land of ghost towns, devoid of people, and we are all crammed into city slums, totally dependent and weak, with no protection of our rights, like third-world urbanized peons under the arbitrary and capricious control of corrupt dictators.  Remember the immortal words of Frederick Douglass:Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.Under the Founders design, the states were to control their own land, unless, and until, the federal government purchased a particular piece of land, with the consent of the state legislature, for a fort, magazine, arsenal, dock-yard, etc.
As Article One, Section 8, Clause 17 states, Congress has the power:
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings.

When did the Federal government purchase the millions of acres in Nevada it claims to own?   When did the legislature of Nevada ever consent to it?   Where are the forts, magazine, arsenals, dock-yards, and other needful buildings on that land?  Where in the Constitution does it say the federal government can keep 80% of a state when it is admitted into the Union?  Nowhere.  And yet the federal government totally ignores the limited powers of Article I, Section 8, Clause 17, doctrine of equal footing, whereby new states admitted to the Union were to enter it on an equal footing with the original states.  Why doesn’t Virginia have 80% of its land claimed by the federal government?   Why doesn’t Ohio?  It is only in the West that this absurdity exists (and it is not just in Nevada.  Similar abuses are seen in the rest of the West).
And now, the federal government is not even content with that.  It wants to control all of the land, and stop all beneficial use, by having complicit federal judges use the catch-all “commerce clause” to turn the Constitution on its head, inventing a general police power of Congress to regulate anything and everything, which is the basis for the entire modern regulatory leviathan that is now strangling and stomping rural America into the dust in the name of the Desert Tortoise, the Spotted Owl, the Delta Smelt (used to deny water to California farmers) and even prairie dogs (with Utah farmers who have farmed for generations told by the EPA that they could no longer till their land because it is now “prairie dog habitat”).
We must stand now, or see our children impoverished and enslaved in their own country.
As Thomas Paine said: “If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.” That is a timeless truth that we must accept and embrace, lest we be cursed by future generations as cowards who sold them into slavery for the sake of our own fleeting comfort.  As Paine also said, “those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it.”
It is vital that the Western States stand up now for the rights of their people and in defense of their state sovereignty.   As Thomas Jefferson and James Madison taught us in 1798, in the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, when the federal government violates the Constitution by claiming powers never granted, it is the duty of the states – all three branches of the state, and at every level, from the Governor down to the local dog catcher – to nullify and interpose to protect the rights of the people and to defend the dual-sovereignty design of this Republic.
In contrast to Sheriff Gillespie, who is truly AWOL in his failure to defend the people of his county, there have been Nevada Sheriffs who take their oaths seriously, such as the legendary Sheriff Jones of Eureka County, Nevada and Nye County Sheriff Tony De Meo, who successfully defended rancher Wayne Hage against BLM abuse.
We wouldn’t even be in this confrontation at the Bundy Ranch if Gillespie took his oath seriously, but even without him, it is time to get it done, and with Nevada State Assemblywoman Fiore and her brave coalition of Nevada legislators leading the way, and joined by a growing coalition of staunch constitutionalist public servants from many states, we will defend the West.
We therefore call on all liberty-loving Americans who can possibly make it to Bunkerville, Nevada to join us in this vigil, NOW, in direct support of oath-keeping Western lawmakers and lawmen as they stand guard over the rights of the people and begin to push back against federal abuse.  Come take a meaningful stand, in a real fight where it counts the most – in our states.  This is far, far more important than any trip to Washington D.C. to wave signs and yell at a deaf and blind Congress, White House, or Supreme Court.  This is where the real battle is, and where you belong.  This is where you can make a real difference, and begin the restoration of the Republic, from the bottom up.
And we call on all who cannot be there in person to be there in spirit, and to hold a prayer vigil for the duration of this struggle, asking that the Lord grant us wisdom, courage, humility, and His protection while we take this stand for our children’s future.  Truly, “where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” 2 Corinthians 3:17
We humbly endeavor, to the utmost extent of our power, to follow in the footsteps of our Founding Fathers when, in their time of great trial, they proclaimed “and for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”
Michele Fiore, Nevada State Assemblywoman, District 4, on behalf of a growing coalition of Nevada State legislators
Matt Shea, Washington State 4th District State Representative, on behalf of a growing delegation of Western state legislators.
Sheriff Richard Mack (Retired), for the CSPOA (as well as a member of the Board of Directors of Oath Keepers), on behalf of a delegation of current serving Sheriffs
Stewart Rhodes, Founder and President of Oath Keepers on behalf of the Board of Directors of Oath Keepers and 40,000 Oath Keepers members
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 11, 2014, 03:10:03 PM
it seems that trespassing cattle interfear with fed plans to use the desert for solar energy projects. doesnt look like the turtle could live there neither. and now.. the willow fly catcher, (its a small bird?) is being tossed out as even more reason to stop this farmer (the last farmer in the county) all the rest of the farmers were over regulated out..
for this?

Image exceeds set limits. Click to view full size image (
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 11, 2014, 03:53:45 PM
county commissioner has harsh words for supporters.
County Commissioner Says Bundy Supporters “Better Have Funeral Plans”
Clark County Commissioner Tom Collins fears the dispute at Cliven Bundy’s ranch that has drawn protesters from across state lines might turn violent.

So when Collins talked this week with a county commissioner in Utah who said others are coming so Southern Nevada to support the Bundys, he did what he usually does: He spoke his opinion without mincing words or worrying if he offended someone.

Those comments are now making the rounds on social media and have attracted criticism from people ranging from Utah ranchers to his colleagues on the County Commission.

It started when Darin Bushman, a Piute County, Utah, commissioner, called Collins about the Bureau of Land Management roundup of Bundy’s cattle in the Gold Butte area, about 80 miles east of Las Vegas. The cattle are being seized after Bundy failed to pay grazing fees over 20 years. When the conversation ended, Bushman posted on Facebook that Collins said Utahns are “inbred b@$&#$%s” and if they come to Clark County to support Bundy they “better have funeral plans.”

Collins also told Bushman that they should mind their “own (expletive) business.”

“Now that’s some classy leadership for you,” Bushman wrote in his post. (
Title: curiouser and curiouser
Post by: zeker on April 11, 2014, 07:41:20 PM
now i can understand the owner not wanting hot heads and crack pots, but...
......a dress code?  get real bud. theres very few days that I aint wearing some kinda camo.. its just the color I like.. sorta like some folks like denim.
I,m old enuf to pic out my own clothes.
Per Ammon Bundy, here are some rules:
First, NO MILITARY CAMMO. This is a protest by rural Americans. Dress accordingly. (from me: Oath Keepers can wear Oath Keepers polos if you have them, or OK T shirts, but please no cammo. Let’s respect the Bundy family request).

No open carry of rifles. Any rifles people may have with them need to stay in the vehicles. When you arrive at the protest rally point, ask for Ammon Bundy, Cliven Bundy’s son, to check in. If he is not there, he will have designated another family rep for you to check in with. DO NOT go past that first rally point/protest site with the flags that the family has set up on private land. Beyond that is the road to their ranch, and no one is to drive to the ranch without express permission and escort by Cliven Bundy or his sons. Please respect their need for security and privacy.
No volunteer is to give any media interviews. Refer all media first and foremost to the Bundy family members present, in particular Cliven Bundy, Ammon, or one of the other sons. And/or refer them to one of the current serving Nevada State legislators who will be there, such as Michele Fiore (she is gathering a coalition of Nevada representatives), or one of the current serving Sheriff’s who will be coming. We are there to support them, and let them handle the media.
If any media ask to interview Oath Keepers, please refer them to me, but I will likely just refer them to the family until we do a press conference once Sheriff Mack arrives – and even then, the focus will be on the coalition of current serving Western State Legislators and Sheriffs that we are helping to gather. They and the family will be the main effort, and we are there as support.
BRING CAMERAS. Film everything. The more cameras, the better.
Bring relevant signs about honoring the oath, respecting property rights and free speech rights. We are there to stand up for rural Americans who are under attack and to pressure the Governor and the Clark County Sheriff to do their duty.
Ammon said volunteers can camp on private property that is on the side of the road at the main protest site the family has set up (the first gathering place you will come to with signs and flags once you get off I-15 at exit 112 and go about two miles). Again, please ask the family members present where to park and where to camp if you want to camp.

Title: BLM fingers reaching again
Post by: zeker on April 11, 2014, 07:55:37 PM
words twisted to mean whatever the speaker wants them to mean..
Red River Rumble? BLM Wants to Seize 90,000 Acres of Texas Ranchers’ Land               Posted by Faye Higbee (                               / April 10, 2014( ( Red River is the boundary between Texas and Oklahoma…or is it?Byers, Texas along the Red River — The BLM stole 140 acres of the Tommy Henderson ranch thirty  years ago. They took his land and paid him absolutely nothing. He sued and lost. Now  the BLM is using that court case as precedent to do it again. The problem is, the land they want to seize is property that  ranchers  have a deed for and have paid taxes on for over a hundred years.
The BLM claims that about 90,000 acres (116 miles along the Red River) have never belonged to Texas in the first place. They will seize the land and it will seriously change the boundaries between the two states.
Avulsion verses Accretion
[youtube (]
Since 1803 when the Louisiana Purchase was completed, there has been a controversy over the boundary between Oklahoma and Texas. The boundary is supposed to be the vegetation line on the south side of the Red River. But the River has moved over time. The problem is the definition of that boundary line- Oklahoma and Texas each use different semantics to define it. And the BLM is finding ways to use the disputed words to give them the ability to seize the  land.
According to the BLM, the Red River is always Accretion (gradual accumulation of sediment) to the south, and always Avulsion  (            (rapid formation of a new river channel) to the north.  So according to the BLM, the boundary only moves one direction, never in the direction that favors the ranchers. They are looking to re-draw the entire portion of the Red River boundary. That includes 90,000 acres of land along a 116 mile stretch of the river.<blockquote>“BLM officials believe they have a responsibility to manage land they believe is federal which includes an estimated 90,000 acres along 116 miles of the Red River. If land is found to be public, BLM officials say they have three options: leave the land open, closed, or open with limitations.” January 2014</blockquote>Public input ignored?
Land that has been in the families of ranchers is to be seized as “public lands” that would be subject to fees or blocked off entirely from rancher’s use. Or in some cases, moving the boundary line over to Oklahoma, where Texas ranchers can lose their rights to the lands that they have owned for more than a century. The BLM ( had open meetings back in January to “take input” from the public …but they are moving forward with their plan to seize the land anyway. There was likely never any intention of actually listening to the rancher’s stand.
The taking of property from land owners, the stealing of cattle, all of these things are apparently the modus operandi of the Bureau of Land Management. There are no tortoises involved in this incident, just land-grabbing feds who are intent to take away the property of ranchers that have owned it for hundreds of years. Will it come to armed confrontation as is occurring in Nevada? We don’t know.
Open grazing of cattle has always been a common law right ( in America. It is time for the American people to rise up against the theft of private lands and property by a government that is out of control. Ranchers have contact Texas  Representative Mac Thornberry for assistance. We will monitor this situation as it progresses.
Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children (
  Tags: BLM (, Bureau of Land Management (, Byers (, land dispute (, Oklahoma (, Red River (, texas (, Tommy Henderson ( this article  33 Comments
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 11, 2014, 09:07:12 PM
getting reports from folks at the scene and just got a call from on e of my friends from JMR who is 10 min away from bundys ranch
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: icrcc on April 11, 2014, 10:13:13 PM
It sounds like things are coming to a head.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: icrcc on April 11, 2014, 11:29:13 PM
Getting reports from contacts on Facebook who are at the scene or trying to get there. Many are being stopped searched and detained for hours. Fox news is now picking up the story of the Harry Reid connections.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 12, 2014, 06:32:24 AM
folks I know got there last nite and I will try to learn more today. they called the radio show last nite but they were still outside of the area. apparently BLM, et all, has swooped up all motel rooms. would be a great time to be a hotel maid with a box of pet tarantulas.  "here fluffy"
also ALL backroads, cart tracks, walking paths etc, have been blocked off, and guarded by blm. also getting reports of folks haveing their "goods" confiscated at checkpoints and hwy stops. these stops need to be recorded.
hope to get a real time report today
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: Henry on April 12, 2014, 07:36:18 AM
I hope that is only beginning of showing what the government is about. It is only little example of government getting total control of every aspect of our life.
Obama promised them transparent and open government. Now they see what he meant.
Title: up dates
Post by: zeker on April 12, 2014, 08:39:10 AM
no fly zone declared over land and surrounding area.. dont want them news choppers getting any good footage.
 wonder how a civilian drone would fare out there. seems to me that one of them little drones would be the perfect thing. casually close in on the feds.. would they actually shoot at it? be interesting.. if they did, then they couldnt state that the protesters started it.
and lets not forget agent provacatuers.
gov could send in a rabble rouser to spark an incident that would give them carte blanche to bust heads. et all.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: icrcc on April 12, 2014, 10:45:23 AM
The no fly zone was probably declared because they want to allow their government drones to fly to 30,00 feet.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: icrcc on April 12, 2014, 02:44:26 PM
Seem to be getting some reports that this is over:

Anyone else picking up on this?
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 12, 2014, 04:47:21 PM (
yep .. watching BLM back out now and the cattle are about to be released.. the BLM had announced that anyone who would not leave, would be shot.. no one left.. BLM finally left.
Title: shock and awe
Post by: zeker on April 12, 2014, 05:01:41 PM
I am catching up. this is a, shock & awe, event.. FOR NOW.. the people have won. the millions spent on this because of a turtle.. but the turtles in the BLMs care had to be euthanized because there was not enuf dollars to  feed them.. BUT there are dollars to steal rights.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 12, 2014, 05:11:29 PM
this solar project ($5b) is getting too much attention , and the bullying of Harry Reids and his connections, to get it working. the only way the solar project could follow thru, was if the Bundys and their cattle, were OFF the land.

so .. this is over.. for now.. the no fly zone is still good for 30 days.. just sayin .
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 12, 2014, 05:18:31 PM
hilarious watching the crowd "salute" the contract cowboys and BLM thugs, leaving.. personally, i would have mooned them.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 12, 2014, 06:41:15 PM (
sara weaver speaks about her own circumstances.. will bundys be another?


Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: iamusul on April 12, 2014, 10:14:30 PM
UPDATE: Sheriff Announces BLM Will Cease Operation... (
'Serious concern about safety of employees and public'... (
Backdown Comes Hours After Reid/China Land Grab Report... (
Confiscated Cattle to be Released... (

A Nevada cattle rancher appears to have won his week-long battle with the federal government over a controversial cattle roundup that had led to the arrest of several protesters.
  Cliven Bundy went head to head with the Bureau of Land Management over the removal of hundreds of his cattle from federal land, where the government said they were grazing illegally.
  Bundy claims his herd of roughly 900 cattle have grazed on the land along the riverbed near Bunkerville, 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas, since 1870 and threatened a "range war" against the BLM on the Bundy Ranch website after one of his sons was arrested while protesting the removal of the cattle.
  "I have no contract with the United States government," Bundy said. "I was paying grazing fees for management and that's what BLM was supposed to be, land managers and they were managing my ranch out of business, so I refused to pay."
  The federal government had countered that Bundy "owes the American people in excess of $1 million " in unpaid grazing fees and "refuses to abide by the law of land, despite many opportunities over the last 20 years to do so."
  However, today the BLM said it would not enforce a court order to remove the cattle and was pulling out of the area.
  "Based on information about conditions on the ground, and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public," BLM Director Neil Kornze said.
  "We ask that all parties in the area remain peaceful and law-abiding as the Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service work to end the operation in an orderly manner," he said.
  The roundup began April 5, following lengthy court proceedings dating back to 1993, federal officials said. Federal officers began impounding the first lot of cows last weekend, and Bundy responded by inviting supporters onto his land to protest the action.
  "It's not about cows, it's about freedom," Utah resident Yonna Winget told ABC News affiliateKTNV in Las Vegas, Nevada.
  "People are getting tired of the federal government having unlimited power," Bundy's wife, Carol Bundy told ABC News.
  By Sunday, April 6, one of Bundy's sons, Dave Bundy, was taken into custody for refusing to disperse and resisting arrest, while hundreds of other protesters, some venturing from interstate, gathered along the road few miles from Bundy's property in solidarity. Dave Bundy was later released.
  A spokesman for the Bundy encampment told ABC News roughly 300 protesters had assembled for the protest, while a BLM representative estimated there were around 100 people.
  "We want a peaceful protest, but we also want our voices heard," said Cliven Bundy's sister, Chrisie Marshall Bundy.
  But clashes between demonstrators and authorities took a violent turn on Wednesday, with cell phone video showing some being tasered at the site, including Bundy's son, Ammon Bundy. Two other protesters were detained, cited and later released on Thursday, according to the BLM.
  As the movement grew by the day, and demonstrators rallied together, bonding by campfires at night, local protest leaders warned people not to wear camouflage and keep their weapons inside their vehicles.
  Both sides said the issue is one of fairness, with the federal government maintaining that thousands of other cattle ranchers are abiding by the law by paying their annual grazing fees, while Bundy's family and supporters say the government's actions are threatening ranchers' freedoms.
  "It's about the freedom
Title: judge pirro speaks
Post by: zeker on April 13, 2014, 07:24:55 AM (   11 min
it was quite amazing to see the BLM back down altho I do beleive a raid at zero dark thirty will happen, and harm will come to folks or property. whether deliberately by BLM or circumventedly? by their  minions ( agent provacatuers)
somehow the gov needs to have the protesters be seen as evil.
vilify, condemn and eliminate.
Title: why would law enforcement cover their badge numbers?
Post by: zeker on April 13, 2014, 07:42:28 AM
deniability.. just like when they wear the face masks and riot gear. but its illegal for you to obscure your feaTURES
New Mexico - FEDS SEIZE FAMILY’S RANCH-Property owners fight government ‘land grab’!!!


April 12, 2014

When Kit Laney answered a knock on his door Saturday, law enforcement officers from the U.S. Forest Service handed him a piece of paper announcing his Diamond Bar Ranch in southwest New Mexico would be shut down Wednesday and his 300 head of cattle grazing there would be removed – one way or the other.

Other Forest Service officials were busy nailing similar notices on fence posts along the highway and informing neighbors that after Feb. 11, they should not attempt to enter the Diamond Bar property.

Laney was not surprised. He knew someday there would be an on-the-ground confrontation to enforce a 1997 court ruling which says his cattle are trespassing on federal land. That day has arrived.

Laney insists the land in question belongs to him; the Forest Service says it belongs to the federal government. So far, the federal court is on the side of the Forest Service. But Laney is not willing to throw in the towel and give up the land that has been in his family since long before there was a U.S. Forest Service.

Moreover, in New Mexico, there is a “brand law” that says, essentially, no cattle may be sold or transported out of state without approval from the State Livestock Board.

Local sheriff Cliff Snyder has notified the Forest Service and other state and federal officials that even though the Forest Service has a court order authorizing the confiscation of the Diamond Bar cattle, they “cannot be shipped and sold without being in direct violation of NM Statute.”

His memo also says “I intend to enforce the state livestock laws in my county. I will not allow anyone, in violation of state law, to ship Diamond Bar Cattle out of my county.”

Last hope for ranchers?

Kit and Sherry Laney are one of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of ranching families who are being squeezed off their land throughout the West. This case has the potential to erect a barrier to further expansion of federal land takeovers in the West or to erase the last hope of retaining ranching as a part of Western culture in the United States.

Both ranchers and federal officials are watching with great anxiety as the conflict moves toward resolution.

The Diamond Bar Ranch is at least 180,000 acres and includes some of the most beautiful land in southwest New Mexico, situated between and including portions of the”>Gila and Aldo Leopold Wilderness areas.

Laney’s ancestors began the “Laney Cattle Company” there in 1883 when the area was still a territory. In those days, “prior appropriation” of water determined grazing rights to the land. That meant the first person to make beneficial use of water obtained the “rights” to the water and to the forage within an area necessary to utilize the available water.

Laney’s ancestors acquired the water rights and the attendant grazing rights on the land now claimed by the federal government.

In 1899, the federal government withdrew from the public domain the land that later became the Gila National Forest, which included much of the land on which Laney’s ancestors had valid claim to water and grazing rights.

Several court cases have determined that land to which others have claims or rights attached cannot be considered “public land.”

Specifically, “It is well settled that all land to which any claims or rights of others have attached does not fall within the designation of public land,” according to Bardon vs. Northern Pacific Railroad Co.

Consequently, Laney reasons, since his ancestors had acquired legal rights to the water and adjacent grazing land before the federal withdrawal, his land could not be considered a part of the public domain.

Forest Service stepped in

When the U.S. Forest Service was created in 1905, one of its first concerns was to find a way to settle disputes among ranchers whose water rights resulted in conflicts over grazing areas. The Forest Service stepped into these territorial conflicts and proposed a way to resolve the disputes.

The rancher parties to the dispute voluntarily agreed to allow the Forest Service to measure the available water to which each participant had legal rights and designate the appropriate forage land required to make beneficial use of the available water. The designated area was called an “allotment.”

The ranchers paid the Forest Service a fee for their adjudication service, a portion of which went into a fund from which the ranchers could make improvements to the range and water access. The Forest Service issued a permit, which designated the forage area and the number of cow/calf units, or AUMs, that could graze the allotment.

Laney’s ancestors participated in this type of Forest Service adjudication process in 1907, three years before New Mexico became a state. The system worked well until 1934, when Congress enacted the Taylor Grazing Act. This law changed the status of the grazing permit from a voluntary process agreed to by the ranchers, into a “license” required by the federal government.

Few ranchers realized this law eventually would strip them of their rights and the land they had worked for generations.

Problems from outset

Laney’s problems began shortly after he acquired the Diamond Bar Ranch, adjacent to the original Laney ranch, in 1985.

The bank from which he bought the ranch had entered into a Memorandum of Agreement with the Forest Service which passed to Laney, the new owner. The agreement required the owner to make certain improvements to watering systems within the Wilderness Areas on the ranch.

The original agreement allowed access to the work areas by mechanical equipment, but environmental organizations pressured the Forest Service to forbid mechanized access, and the agreement was modified. Laney agreed to use mules and non-mechanical means to live up to his end of the agreement.

When he acquired the Diamond Bar, the allotment provided for 1,188 head of cattle. By 1995, the Forest Service reduced the allotment to 300 head. When the permits came due for renewal on the original Laney ranch and the Diamond Bar, in 1995 and 1996, Laney decided he would not sign the permits, since he believed the land was his, not subject to permits issued for grazing on federal land.

Kit and Sherry have spent hours in courthouses in Catron, Grand and Sierra counties, searching titles and documents all the way back to the original claims of water and grazing rights in the 1800s.

They have developed a clear chain of title showing continuous private ownership of the water rights and the attendant grazing rights on the land that is now claimed by the government.

They believe the government’s original withdrawal of the land in 1899 could not include their land, since private property rights had attached to the land.

Neither the Forest Service nor the federal court are impressed with Laney’s reasoning, and the Forest Service is moving to rid the ranch of cattle. And without a means of utilizing the water and land for any productive purpose, the Laneys too will have to leave – unless they can get someone to pay attention to their rights.

Ridding the West of ranchers

For nearly 100 years, federal agencies and ranchers worked together to improve the range and to develop a growing economic foundation for Western states.

Things began to change with the rise of the environmental movement in the late 1970s. By the mid 1980s, there was a concerted, coordinated effort to rid the West of ranchers. In 1992, with the publication of the Wildlands Project, the reasons for squeezing out the ranchers, and other resource providers, began to come into focus.

The Wildlands Project envisions at least half of the land area of North America, restored to “core wilderness areas,” off-limits to humans.

Wilderness areas are to be connected by corridors of wilderness, so wildlife will have migration routes unhampered by people. The Diamond Bar ranch lies directly in the path of a key wilderness corridor.

Bill Clinton’s election in 1992 resulted in the placement of environmental organization executives in key positions throughout the government.

Bruce Babbitt, formerly head of the League of Conservation Voters, became secretary of the Department of Interior, and George Frampton, formerly head of the Wilderness Society, became chief of the U.S. Forest Service. These, and other environmentalists in government, came from the very organizations that promoted the Wildlands Project.

Environmental organizations pressured federal agencies with lawsuits and good-ol’-boy influence to impose the goals of the Wildlands Project through various government initiatives.

Kit and Sherry Laney are among hundreds whose lives and livelihoods have been forever uprooted by the government’s willingness to advance the goals of the Wildlands Project.

The Laneys say they have a ray of hope, however. On Jan. 29, 2002, Judge Loren Smith ruled in a similar case that Wayne Hage “submitted an exhaustive chain of title which showed that the plaintiffs and their predecessors-in-interest had title to the fee lands” which the federal government had claimed to be federal land.

Wayne Hage lost his cattle, but now the court has ruled that a “takings” has occurred, for which the government must pay “just compensation.”

The Hage decision has sent ranchers across the West rushing to courthouses, searching for and documenting the “chain of title,” to the land, grazing and water rights.

Kit Laney has completed his search, and recorded the “exhaustive chain of title” in each of the county courthouses where his land lies. He may not be able to stop the removal of his cattle, even with the help of the local sheriff. But Laney has served notice that he does not intend to roll over and let the government simply take what his family has worked for generations to build.

He says he will fight as long as he has breath. The Forest Service, and the other federal agencies now know they can no longer pick off a single rancher, and move on to the next. The Hage decision, and the determination of Kit Laney has inspired thousands of ranchers to resist the government’s squeezing and to push back.

These ranchers are from the same stock of ranchers who pushed the United States all the way to the Pacific ocean; once riled, they may push the Forest Service all the way back to Washington.

http://www.americasfreedomfighters.c...ent-land-grab/ ( </blockquote>
Title: covering ID
Post by: zeker on April 13, 2014, 12:18:47 PM
when you see the police deliberately covering up their identifying ensignia, you know they are worried about being held accountable.. I personably believe that any cop or gov agent who willfully covers his/her ID, should be fired. These folks work for the people and should not be hiding..
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: icrcc on April 13, 2014, 12:26:41 PM
Interesting how this went unreported in the mainstream media isn't it. This is photo that was posted on in a story bt Tom Dennen.
Title: standoff
Post by: zeker on April 13, 2014, 12:39:19 PM
about the only coverage any of this got on mainstream,fox..cnn.. was a cursory blip about gun toting militia members with accompanying photo of ,said, redneck.
In the one picture i was wondering who was on the overpass.. the BLM was at a standoff under the bridge.. had this been maidan ukraine, those BLM mers would have been lit up.
If I was on that brideg i would be sorely tempted to drop a water btl "to" them.. it being hot, ya know?
and another point.. we see news broadcasts from every armpit of the world.. I vivid detail.. and yet.. we cant get decent vid of something so close to home? odd. almost like it was deliberate.. I,m sure it was just a poor week for signals. maybe smoke signals woulda workt
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 13, 2014, 02:01:46 PM
plenty more pics etc here (
Title: interesting vid with more info
Post by: zeker on April 13, 2014, 02:07:30 PM
20 min.. some good stuf.. some woow woo?.. but who knows whats woo anymore? (
odd phone calls
Title: finally.. the best vid of the truning point
Post by: zeker on April 13, 2014, 02:59:56 PM ( 7 min
very clear vid.. WTF?  why is all the rest dogshyt?
Title: aftermath
Post by: zeker on April 14, 2014, 07:41:31 AM (
an after action report or assessment..
or just plain observations after the fact.,
clearly comms was being assaulted. clearly names, faces, Id, were being correlated.
 never know who is a plant. or how good the drones can record.
 I havent heard anything about any type of civilian leadership or co-ordinated plan, altho, at the end it was very co-ordinated
(the stand at the gate)
one question for the NEXT time..
do we want radio personalitys/celebreties, running the show? I,m not saying any of them did or even try.. but i could see it coming to that with some folks standing behind their "fav"   .. oprah moment.
was bundy leading the charge? I believe he was, out front and he is a strong man.. his family and neighbours stood with him.. but the next time it mite be an old woman. what then?  who will lead?
a leaderless resistance is not as focussed as it could be. too many loose ends .. too many loose cannons..
what veiws have yall?
Title: intel..
Post by: zeker on April 14, 2014, 08:58:07 AM
if gov is gathering names and ID,s and info on folks who were involved, wouldnt it be prudent for the "peoples side" to gather intel on those who would do them harm? after all.. its just harmless intel. "if you have nothing to hide....."
kinda goes back to the covering up of badge numbers etc,
names addresses and other info..
no one would be advocating any type of threat by gathering this info. just learning who our enemys are...
now if it was perceived as a threat, no one can control what others believe...
just saying.  an unsaid threat, or perceived threat, can be just as effective as a stated and declared one.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: icrcc on April 14, 2014, 09:15:48 AM
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Title: definition of a theat.
Post by: zeker on April 14, 2014, 09:22:51 AM
there are those who would think think gathering info on public servants, is an obvious threat to the officers family or at least to officer safety.. I think  tptb gathering info on me, to barge into my home at zero dark thirty with flash grenades and "evil black rifles" is a threat also. and my dog doesnt feel safe neither. and if i was holding the remote for my tv, when said officers entered my home, they would more than likely shoot me.
thats a threat
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: icrcc on April 14, 2014, 07:10:05 PM
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: icrcc on April 14, 2014, 07:21:17 PM
A good video showing events ant the ranch. Do not try to share this on Facebook they are blocking it!
Title: bundyville
Post by: zeker on April 15, 2014, 08:30:47 AM
12 min vid about how deep this goes (  talks of misinfo, and disinfo, and the truth, and how they get twisted together to disguise reality
Title: enlightening veiwpoint.
Post by: zeker on April 16, 2014, 06:54:59 AM (
this is a radio podcast from a fella I listen to and converse with alot.. as well as his wife.. he gives his views on bundyville in an hr long show from last monday.. him and his militia troop went to the ranch.
there are apparently 2 kinds of militias.. one kind, drinks beer and says patriotic things.. the other kind ( these folks), is dedicated to training and practicing scenarios as well as providing security for situations just like this. they have an hierachy and are recognised by local law enforcement. His group is well recorgnised by Oath keepers and other patriot movements.
feds dont like them.
this man.. cope reynolds, owns  Southwest Shooting Authority in new mexico? I think new mex. he travels several states to train those wishing to advance their skills in weaponry defence and offence.. he trains regular joes(and janes) and LEO,s. He has a military background and suspects that the thugs in the taseing video with the dogs, was hired help (blackwater types).
Cope and his wife Amy both have radio podcasts on both of their shows are geared toward audience participation. once you figger out the time change, it is well worth the listen.
Title: world bank needs/wants your land
Post by: zeker on April 16, 2014, 05:16:05 PM
<blockquote> (


Derry Brownfield
August 17, 2007

I consider Wayne Hage one of the most intelligent men I ever met. On our very first visit he was explaining the World Bank, the International Monetary fund and how the world bankers planned on collateralizing the world debt with land. Not just the U.S. national debt, but the “WORLD” debt. A listener sent me a copy of a report of the FOURTH WORLD WILDERNESS CONGRESS, which was held in Denver in 1987. Over 1500 people from sixty countries were told that wilderness lands were to protect the reindeer, the spotted owl and other endangered species. Ninety percent of the group consisted of conservationists, ecologists, government and United Nations bureaucrats. The other ten percent were world banking heavyweights, such as David Rockefeller of Chase Manhattan Bank, London banker Edmund de Rothschild and the Secretary of the U.S. Treasury, James Baker, who gave the keynote address. George W. Hunt, an investment councilor, served as official host and sat in on all the meetings. It was George Hunt that wrote the report from which I have gleaned much of my information.

During the first three days, the group was told that the WILDERNESS CONGRESS was about beating the ozone deterioration and bringing the rain forests back. The following days were closed to the public. With only the bankers in attendance the topics discussed centered around the creation of a “WORLD CONSERVATION BANK” with collateral being derived from receipt of wilderness properties throughout the world. This bank would have central bank powers similar to the Federal Reserve. It would create currency and loans and engage in international discounting, counter-trade, barter and swap actions. Rothschild personally conducted the monetary matters and the creation of this WORLD CONSERVATION BANK. This bank would refinance by swapping debt for assets. A country with a huge national debt would receive money to pay off the debt by swapping the debt for wilderness lands. The plan was to swap one trillion dollars of Third World Debt into this new bank. In the long term, when the countries won’t be able to pay off the loans, governments from around the world will give title to their wilderness lands to the bankers.

George Hunt wrote: “Title to the lands will go to the World Wilderness Land Inventory Trust. This Trust will float into the World Conservation Bank by the unanimous decree of the world’s people, saying, God bless you for saving our reindeer. Those people at the congress were ignorant. They don’t suspect anything. They’re very naïve. Not stupid, ignorant. I’m talking about the 90% that were not the world banking heavyweights.”

Hunt goes on to say that World Bank loans, as they stand now, are not collateralized. They’re saying, we want collateral, so when we loan-swap this debt, we’re going to own the Amazon if you default. They’re going to make their bad loans good by collateralizing them after the fact with all of this land and somebody is going to end up with title to twelve and half billion acres. They have multi-trillions of dollars upon which they can create currencies and loans and they’re going to begin to barter and counter-trade and loan-swap against the United States. The World Conservation Bank is a scheme to monetize land. This will function as a world central bank and out of that bank there will grow a one-world fiat currency.

This isn’t some scheme conjured up during the Bushes’ and Clinton administrations. The United Nations World Commission on Environment and Development was created in 1982. The commission published the “BRUNDTLAND REPORT” setting the stage for unlimited enactments to take over ecology, and environmental and pollution laws throughout the world. The report stated: “We will have a proposal for very harsh, quasi-spiritual ecological laws for MOTHER EARTH. A MOTHER EARTH COMES FIRST mentality will arise throughout the world.”

When James Baker made his keynote speech in 1987, he stated that, “No longer will the World Bank carry this debt unsecured. The only assets we have to collateralize are federal lands and national parks.” Baker’s definition of federal lands includes Heritage sites, of which there are about 20 in the United States. I say “about” 20, because they are being added on a regular basis. As I write this article Congress is about to vote on a proposed Rim of the Valley National Park that would include over 500,000 acres of National Forest land and 170,000 parcels of private property including many farms and ranches. At the same time there is a bill before Congress called the Northern Rockies Ecosystem Protection Act that would increase the acreage of designated wilderness by 50% in the lower 48 states. *** While our Heritage sites take in quite a large amount of territory, such as Yellowstone National Park and Mesa Verde, the Grand Canyon and the Everglades, other countries have much greater areas. Brazil for example has the Amazon Conservation Complex and Canada has the Canadian Rocky Mountain Parks. As I write this story the list includes 851 properties in 141 countries, comprising over one third of the earth’s land mass. Will all this land collateralize the world’s debt? Probably not, so along comes NAIS (the National Animal Identification System).

According to the United States Department of Agriculture, “The first step in implementing a national animal identification system (NAIS) is identifying and registering premises that are associated with the animal agriculture industry. In terms of the NAIS, a premise is any geographically unique location in which agricultural animals are raised, held, or boarded. Under this definition, farms, ranches, feed-yards, auction barns and livestock exhibitions and fair sites are all examples of premises.” That may be the definition some government bureaucrat will give you, but the word “premises” under the “international Criminal Court Act 2002- Sect 4, states: The word “premises” includes a place and a “conveyance.” Why check with the International Criminal Court Act? Because on June 8, 2007 under Secy. of Ag. Bruce Knight, speaking at the World Pork Expo in Des Moines, is quoted as saying, “We have to live by the same international rules we’re expecting other people to do.”

Throughout the entire Draft National Animal Identification System Users Guide, land is referred to as a premises and not property. A “Premises” has no protection under the Constitution of the United States, while property always has the exclusive rights of the owner tied to it. Property rights are protected by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the Constitution.

The word “Premise” is a synonym for the word tenement. A definition of the word tenement in law is: Property, such as land, held by one person “leasing” it to another. Webster’s New World Dictionary 1960 College Edition defines “Premises” as the part of a deed or “lease” that states its reason, the parties involved and the property in “conveyance.” Webster then defines “conveyance” as the transfer of ownership of real property from one person to another. It is quite obvious that the bureaucrats in Washington had a very good reason to use the term “premises” and never mention “PROPERTY.”

Let’s take another look at the wilderness areas and the World Bank’s plans to collateralize its loans. While the wilderness areas cover about one third of the earth’s surface, they are wilderness areas for a good reason – they were useless or difficult to homestead, farm or use in a constructive manner. Worldwide the best and more valuable land is occupied by farmers, ranchers and people with the ambition to produce. Wouldn’t the World Bankers rather have some productive property than mountains, deserts and swamps?

I am convinced that the word “premise” will put an encumbrance on your deed. The bankers say they want to monetize land. It’s your land and my land they want to monetize.

The bankers are in the process of accumulating the wealth of the world. Very few privately owned assets can be termed “real wealth.” According to scripture, God made Abraham very wealthy, giving him LAND, CATTLE, silver and gold. (Genesis 24:35) Four thousand years later, wealth continues to be LAND, CATTLE, silver and gold. I don’t know where the world deposits of gold are stored, but I’m sure the bankers have them in their control. That only leaves LAND and CATTLE which I believe could be next on the list. Genesis 47 describers how Joseph had storehouses full of grain to feed the people but he didn’t have a welfare program. During the first year of the famine, Joseph took “ALL THE MONEY” the people had for only one year’s supply of grain. The second year he took all their cattle for another year’s supply of grain. The next year they said, “We have nothing left but our bodies and our land. Buy us and our land in exchange for food and we and our land will be servants to Pharaoh.” Genesis 47:21 states, “And as for the people, he removed them to the cities and made slaves of them.”

James Madison made a statement concerning how our people could lose our freedom by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power. Is it possible that those in power today are gradually and silently in the process of removing the people to the cities to make slaves of them? Federalizing our land and our cattle would certainly be a step in that direction. </blockquote>
Title: update
Post by: zeker on April 17, 2014, 08:02:21 AM

"Updating With Stewart Rhodes

NOTE: First, at the moment things are quiet here. 99% of the rumors on the internet are either blatantly false or wildly inaccurate. No strong presence of federal agents has been seen. Remnants of BLM's recent sojourn here are still present, such as the lights they had put up at their "field-headquarters" and no doubt we are under surveillance of all kinds, but there is no overt, visible massing of federal law enforcement.

We are, however concerned that the domestic enemies of the Constitution that infest the federal government might try to take advantage of folks going home, and attempt to make a move on the Bundy family. We feel certain that they will want to try again at some point, perhaps in a different way, even perhaps by executing a dynamic entry raid to attempt to arrest the Bundys. And we have heard that this is being discussed, though I have not been able to directly confirm it. But it is a real risk.

Therefore, to prevent such a raid, or to at least throw a monkey wrench into any such plans and make it more difficult for them, we're doing the following:

1: We are calling on all Oath Keepers who can possibly get here to come to the Bundy Ranch to serve as volunteers on an ongoing, rotating watch.
That is not because there is any great emergency, but is a preventative measure - sort of like doing a rotation on the DMZ.

I am urging each and every Oath Keepers member who can, to get here and spend a bit of time to ensure that the Bundys are not alone. We need boots on the ground. We want you here, standing watch, which is appropriate for us Oath Keepers since our motto is "Not on Our Watch."

We have six Oath Keepers here from New Hampshire (one of whom - Jerry DeLemus - is now the head of security for the ranch). We have one woman, Lori Storm, who drove down by herself from Nebraska, and one of our Board members from Nebraska, Steve Homan, is also here. We've got people here from Montana, Utah, Arizona, California, and Washington State. People are here from all over the country.

But people, however dedicated, will get burnt out and we need others to rotate in. We need you to step up and serve your turn on watch.

We are raising money to help with gasoline - just be sure to save all receipts for reimbursement.

(EA here: That may only be available on first-come first-served basis. Of the money we've raised thus far, we've given $12,000.00 dollars to the Bundy family, and we purchased a $1,000.00 generator, but we are now raising more money to help some folks traveling from afar.)

I will not ask you to do anything I am not willing to do myself. So, even though I have been away from my home and family since April 10, I am still here, and I will remain here through April 19, standing watch with the others. I was supposed to be speaking at a rally in Idaho on that day, but I canceled that because I need to be here to lead by example by also pulling a watch stint.
And I can think of no better place to be on April 19 than on ground where modern patriots followed the example of the Founders and stood firm in defense of liberty. Like their forefathers before them who stood at Lexington and Concord, they refused to bend the knee to tyranny, and they stood their ground. And that spot of ground may go down in history as the birthplace of the next American Revolution, where the tide was turned, and the people stood up.

Bundy Ranch: We Came Risking Never Coming Home

On Saturday, April 19, we w ill have speakers (such as Mike Vanderboegh of the Three Percenters) and then we will follow in the foosteps of the Founding generation by renewing our oaths at approximately 6pm. What better place to do that than where brave Americans just kept their oaths and continue to keep their oaths in such a profound and moving way.

I invite you to join us there, both to do your duty, and to honor our forefathers and every American who has fought for this nation, from Lexington Green to today, as we celebrate our liberty that has been won for us and preserved for us, at such great cost.

NOTE: There is also a cowboy barbeque being thrown Friday night, April 18, by the Bundy family down by the river near their ranch. The Bundy's will provide the food and live music, with the first band going on at 6pm. All you need to do is show up. Ammon Bundy told me that you are welcome to bring your families, and are welcome to camp there. So, this is not just about standing watch. This is also about fellowship, family, and enjoying the land the Bundy family has been caring for for generations.

All of us who are here consider it a great honor to stand with this patriot family, and I can tell you that we Oath Keepers also consider it a great honor to be in the company of this fine bunch of Americans who have traveled from all over our country to support and stand with the Bundy family.

The Bundys are open and very grateful for people coming to be there for them, and thus far the caliber and quality of the people who've been here has been outstanding. From all over America people of good character and brave spirit have come to help and have done honor to our American traditions. We want those types of people. We do not want hot-heads who are looking for a fight. We want "cool, calm, and collected" - the "quiet professional." Thank you for understanding. Yes, by all means, bring your rifles, handguns, and whatever other gear you think you will need to stand watch, and yes, that includes any cammo you think will work best.

2: A rotating vigil of state legislators and current serving sheriffs at the ranch. This second part of our plan is a continuation of what we've already been doing. Oath Keepers helped facilitate a number of legislators from several Western States traveling to the Bundy Ranch this past week. Sheriff Mack's Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association ( helped ensure that some real-deal constitutional Sheriffs were also present on the side of the Bundy family.

Bundy Ranch: Stewart Rhodes and the Statesman Vigil
We will be continuing this effort and we need proactive Oath Keepers to help arrange a steady stream of State and County officials to rotate presence there so that the idiot government will have to admit it's ready to kill sitting elected public servants to assert its authority, or leave the Bundy family - and their cows - alone. Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore, on Monday night, served the first vigil in the Bundy Ranch House (if only the Nevada Governor, Brian Sandoval, had a fraction of her integrity and courage. We wouldn't need to be here).

And to support that "official" stream of State and County officials, as well as others with names of gravity, Oath Keepers' general membership will also rotate into service there.

There is also some serious perimeter security and Oath Keepers CPTers who volunteer to help with the out-lying security in the desert will find this to be a great training exercise. Bring your gear. Consider this your Minute Man FTX. But however you come, do come. Oath Keepers will not be alone in this. Many other Americans are mobilizing now, millions of Americans are learning about it and are wanting to be helpful. Be part of it.

For the Republic!
Stewart Rhodes
Founder and President of Oath Keepers

PS - I want to personally thank Nebraska Oath Keepers President and member of our national BOD, Steve Homan, a Marine's Marine, who fought in Vietnam, who is here with me. Though Steve has five stints in his heart, and still carries around a bullet in his stomach courtesy of the NVA, he is here, and he will be standing watch with me till Saturday evening. I also want to thank four fine patriots and Oath Keepers - Rick, Ben, George, and John - who also attend Pastor Chuck Baldwin's Liberty Fellowship church in Montana. They drove down here together last week and though George had to fly home, Rick, Ben, and John have agreed to stay here with me until Saturday night, and then drive all night to get us home for Easter Service at Liberty Fellowship in Kalispell (I promised my wife and kids I would be home for Easter and that is a promise I need to keep if at all possible). "
it seems that april 19th is an historic date, both in USA (lexington concord) and elsewhere
Title: harry reid speaks out
Post by: zeker on April 17, 2014, 06:11:13 PM (
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: icrcc on April 18, 2014, 12:37:41 AM
No surprise there, he actually probably believes it.  It just shows how out of touch with reality he is.
Title: its all for the tortoise. o wait
Post by: zeker on April 18, 2014, 09:27:15 AM
But federal funds are running dry at the Las Vegas Valley
facility, and rather than release the animals, officials plan to
euthanize about half of the 1,400 tortoises. The 220-acre
facility will shut its doors in 2014, and the tortoises deemed
feeble to survive in the wild will be set free...
The Bureau of Land Management currently funds the conservation
and research center with fees inflicted on those who disturb
tortoise habitats. During the housing boom in the early 2000s,
the conservation center had plenty of cash, since developers were
frequently fined for disturbing such habitats. But since the
recession, the BLM has struggled to meet its annual $1 million

Over the past 11 months, the BLM has only accumulated $290,000 in
federal mitigation fees that developers are forced to pay.

“With the money going down and more and more tortoises coming
in, it never would have added up,” BLM spokeswoman Hillerie
Patton told AP.

But federal funds are running dry at the Las Vegas Valley
facility, and rather than release the animals, officials plan to
euthanize about half of the 1,400 tortoises. The 220-acre
facility will shut its doors in 2014, and the tortoises deemed
feeble to survive in the wild will be set free... (
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 19, 2014, 06:42:45 AM
 the john galt show last nite mentioned that things were heating up again at bundy ranch and that about twice the number of folks were there from last weekend
Title: sheriff de meo speaks
Post by: zeker on April 19, 2014, 06:51:37 AM
To know your future, you must know your past,
each stepping stone that has been cast.
Remember the good, as well as the bad,
and feel the emotions of happy and sad.

Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 11159066
( United States
04/19/2014 02:14 AM
Report Abusive Post (
Report Copyright Violation (
Re: The constitutional sheriff Tony DeMeo - Don't let it happen to Bundy Ranch
Title: wheres PETA?
Post by: zeker on April 19, 2014, 07:47:05 AM
Quote: Apr 18, 2014

In our continuing coverage of the events at the Bundy Ranch in Nevada we bring you the latest from Senator Harry Reid who is calling supporters of the Bundy family "domestic terrorists." and referred to the Bundy family as "un-American" for not submitting to federal demands.

After a tense standoff between federal authorities and armed citizens at the Bundy Ranch in Nevada, government forces backed down. The Bureau of Land Management announced they withdrew from the area due to concerns about safety. The retreat was so hasty, many pieces of equipment were left behind on the field.

Referring to the armed citizens, Reid said, "They're nothing more than domestic terrorists. I repeat: what happened there was domestic terrorism."

The federal government claims the Bundys owe more than a million dollars in unpaid grazing fees. The rancher said his family has worked the land for generations. The BLM revoked his permit to graze the lands, claiming a danger to species of tortoise even while the BLM euthanized over 1000 tortices.

Despite this, animals and cattle belonging to the rancher met gristly deaths at the hands of the federal authorities. Around 40 head of cattle were found dead in areas held by federal authorities before their withdrawal. The slaughtered animals were found in a mass grave, quickly dug with a backhoe.

Many show evidence of having been killed by gunmen in helicopters. Several animals, fatally wounded by federal authorities, were left to suffer and die in the hot sun. BLM agents say the slaughter of animals in the field were "mercy killings." Tracks in the dirt are consistent with those of healthy animals, running in a panic.

Federal officials in helicopters herded surviving cattle into makeshift pens, imprisoning the animals in horrific conditions. Some cattle died from dehydration and stress while in the cattle camps.

Natural News, run by Mike Adams the "Health Ranger," is describing federal actions in Nevada as "horrific atrocities against cattle."

Michele Fiore, a Nevada assemblywoman, personally helped save one calf, born moments before becoming separated from her mother during the massacre.

In addition to atrocities against livestock, human protesters were victims of stun gun attacks and were threatened by federal officials commanding attack dogs.

Nevada Senator harry Reid has told the public that federal efforts against the Bundy family are not yet over.

While we've now heard Reid's statements on the referring to peaceful protesters as Domestic Terrorists we're awaiting Animal Rights groups to declare the same of the BLM for their treatment of Bundy's free range cattle.
Title: the harry reid we seldom see..
Post by: zeker on April 19, 2014, 08:04:53 AM
Harry: Money, Mob & Influence In Harry Reid's Nevada   

Daxton Brown(Author)

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's connections to money, mob and influence in Nevada going back fifty years (fourth edition). Revelations from Reid's first campaign manager and others paints a picture of a politician taking money on the side. Most shocking is the polygraph backed claim that Harry Reid took unreported donations from pimp Joe Conforte of the Mustang Ranch brothel in the years leading up to Reid's time on the Nevada Gaming Commission. Conforte's links to mob figures like Jimmy 'the Weasel' Fratianno and Johnny Simone mean the mob knew Reid was on the take. Also disturbing are accounts of Reid's long friendship with a lawyer to many of the most notorious strip clubs in Las Vegas - some of whose owners just did jail time for bribery and were Reid's political proteges. Oscar Goodman, Las Vegas Mayor and lawyer to the mob also enters the picture. Sweetheart treatment of land developers, the G-Sting scandal, fat cat campaign contributors and more taint the record of Senator Reid, one of the most powerful politicians in the U.S. and therefore the world. (
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: Henry on April 19, 2014, 09:11:41 AM
It is not over yet , just postponed. Government will do whatever they set up to do. The whole government take over started long time ago and will continue until complete. Makes no different democrats or republicans , the goal is the same : COMPLETE CONTROL of all people by small and powerful group. Most of people already accepted it , as long as they have sports, video games, drugs and free handouts they are happy.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: NObshere on April 19, 2014, 11:24:27 AM
It is not over yet , just postponed. Government will do whatever they set up to do. The whole government take over started long time ago and will continue until complete. Makes no different democrats or republicans , the goal is the same : COMPLETE CONTROL of all people by small and powerful group. Most of people already accepted it , as long as they have sports, video games, drugs and free handouts they are happy.

And as long as they live in fear...That is the greatest weapon that these elitist doucebags have. Fear of being labelled, fear of speaking your mind, fear of not keeping up appearances...just plain old fear.
Title: more reid speak
Post by: zeker on April 23, 2014, 07:42:47 AM (
it seems that politicians dont like the spotlight being shone on them. at first i thought this would drag on in perpetuity, but now I think the politicos want the peoiples' gaze AWAY from them, so they will instigate something.
many things cannot stand scrutiny.. one of the biggest is ..politics/politicians.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: tazweiss on April 23, 2014, 11:44:29 AM
I remember seeing an agenda 21 map of the U.S. which showed areas where humans won't be allowed.  I wonder how many of the ranches and farms being targeted by the feds are in those areas.  At any rate, it seems that the Obama administration is finding the line in the sand with the American people.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: JustABear on April 23, 2014, 01:58:48 PM
Here is a good link to a map.
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: icrcc on April 23, 2014, 04:07:34 PM
If they went with that map there would have to shed a lot of their population because there would be no land left to feed them!
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: JustABear on April 23, 2014, 04:52:08 PM
If they went with that map there would have to shed a lot of their population because there would be no land left to feed them!

In the end isn't that the plan?
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 24, 2014, 08:10:50 AM
infiltraters? agents provacatuers?
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: NObshere on April 24, 2014, 10:11:03 AM
If they went with that map there would have to shed a lot of their population because there would be no land left to feed them!

In the end isn't that the plan?

Google the Georgia guidestones, for the ten commandments of the new world order
Title: Re: another ruby ridge?
Post by: zeker on April 25, 2014, 07:27:35 AM
bundy speaks to the press and this is where the press got the statements about racism (
Title: meanwhile.. the left hand is.............
Post by: zeker on May 01, 2014, 07:16:28 PM
Commissioners issued a cease, desist letter to the US Forest Service      <blockquote> (

Commissioners issued a cease, desist letter to the US Forest Service

Commissioners claims Forest Service is fencing off water resources for ranchers

By Janessa Maxilom @janessa_speaks on Twitter

Posted:   04/25/2014 09:07:12 PM MDT

Otero County Commissioners issued a cease and desist illegal fencing activities letter to the U.S. Forest Service Friday.

During an emergency meeting, District 3 Commissioner Ronny Rardin said Otero County Sheriff Benny House recently made the county aware of USFS potentially illegal fencing activities.

House said ranchers in the mountains have had issues with the Forest Service fences blocking their cattle from reaching areas that contain water.

He said he reached out the commission on behalf of the ranchers because he was concerned with the legality of the situation.

Looking into the situation the commission decided that current USFS fencing appears to be encroachment on private property.

After deciding the fencing could be deemed as illegal fencing the county issued a statement to Lincoln National Forest Supervisor Travis Moseley, "It has come to the Otero County Commission's attention that your personnel are actively interfering with our citizens' private property rights. We understand from Sheriff House and our constituents that your personnel are building enclosure fences around water sources and 'riparian areas.'"

The letter goes on to state that the USFS dose not possess a water right that would allow their behavior and that such water rights are the property of the person that is grazing cattle. The letter also stated that it is illegal for the USFS to attempt to exclude cattle from access to water.

"This amounts to nothing short of criminal trespass by your personnel, potential animal cruelty and several other violations of state criminal or civil law," the commission stated in the letter. "Otero County respectfully demands that the USFS immediately cease and desist from all such activities. We respectfully encourage USFS to take a step back and respect private property rights and state law which the USFS has thus far failed to consider."

Moseley attended the meeting and responded by saying he focuses on land management and sustainability.

"My focus tends to be — and I ask my rangers to be focused on — land management," Moseley said. "When it comes to livestock grazing it's about water availability, it's good distribution, it's proper utilization and it's those things that we look to for long term sustainability of those resources. That's paramount."

Moseley said the reason the fences were placed is to manage riparian areas for very specific objectives and one reason is to maintain a healthy hydrological system.

LNF Sacramento District Ranger James Duran said the fencing has been done to preserve the Agua Chiquita riparian area.

Duran said the Forest Service is also currently focused on taking measures to protect the New Mexico Meadow Jumping Mouse.

"Fish and Wildlife Services are preparing to list the New Mexico meadow jumping mouse," Duran said. "With the meadow mouse listing, what we've been told is they do plan to move forward in June of 2014 to list that as an endangered species. Once a species is listed as an endangered species it's protected. Federally protected. We have to abide by that."

Duran said USFS is trying to get ahead of the situation and to protect riparian areas where the mice are known to reside.

"I think we're doing a pretty decent job of managing them and these fences that we're putting into them will only allow for management to be more sustainable and more affective," Duran said.

He said he felt it would be a good idea to get the Fish and Wildlife Service involved in the conversation so they could inform everyone about the importance of protecting the specie.

Duran said he would personally reach out to Fish and Wildlife to set aside time for them to educate the county and its citizens about the animal.

"I guess we need to put the cattle on the endangered species list so you guys can work diligently to protect them," Rardin said. "When you say it's about the mouse It's so obvious to me the environmental movement is to stop and get the cattle off the land."

Rardin said the issue was about water rights and that citizens of the state had rights to the water sources the Forest Service has fenced up.

Duran and Moseley explained that USFS is simply carrying out mandated orders to preserve the land.

"What we need to do is stop the action right now and bring all the players to the table and I mean all the players, not just you guys," District 2 Commissioner Susan Flores said. "It's not coming from you. You're being told what to do. We need to have a public hearing."

Moseley said the way private property and water rights are interpreted is something that needs to be looked into.

Moseley maintained that all the fences that were built were on federal land the Forest Service manages. He added that he was willing to collaborate with the commission to find common ground and get the situation resolved.


The ranchers have private water use rights for their cattle established under state law long before the forests were created. They also have rights of way granted by the federal government under RS2477. They have associated forage rights to these two rights.

These heritage ranches were created on the age old western system where cattle was turned out in the mountains during the summer so that home grass in the pastures could be harvested for use in winter.  The grazing allotment is usually tied to a specific ranch, is taxable by the IRS and is sold as part of the ranch's value. The grazers pay possessory interest tax to the state and county. The fee that they pay for lease of forage is small because they already exclusively own the water use rights, the forage is generally very sparse, cattle is killed by the wild varmits and may require riders to manage.

The enviros have wanted the western cattlemen off the land for decades. (Cattle free by '93.) They harass grazers, try and coopt their allotments, and use the Endangered Species Act to shut down their private water supply. The USFS and BLM has cut grazing opportunities way down and has put their NEPA review on a slow boat.

"Public land" grazing is an important part of our food supply. Usually, the land is of such poor quality that it is not otherwise suitable for crops. There is usually not additional private land available to replace the public land for grazing opportunities as it is already in use or of too high a value. The national beef herd has sharply declined over the past decade. [The January 1, 2014, total cow inventory declined by 1 percent year over year.  Except for 2004-6, the January 2014 inventory represents the 16th year of decline since cow inventories began their drought-induced drop from the 1996 inventory peak. ( ]

Getting grazers off federal land is a strategy to improve the current split estate title that exists (broken bundle of sticks) and makes the title more suitable for collateral for the national debt.</blockquote>
Title: nuther protest about BLM policies..
Post by: zeker on May 11, 2014, 08:10:05 AM (
altho it says it is separate but "in line  with" bundys fight, The face in the pic is (looks like) bundys son, ryan.
Title: more fed heavy handedness. all for a mouse
Post by: zeker on May 14, 2014, 07:32:12 AM
Feds rile ranchers by fencing off water for cattle — to protect a jumping mouse!      <blockquote>Forest Service says it’s mouse habitat

By Valerie Richardson
The Washington Times
Sunday, May 11, 2014

The Obama administration’s crackdown on Western land use has sparked a furor over the Forest Service’s decision to fence off a creek used by thirsty cattle in drought-stricken Otero County, New Mexico.

The Otero County Commission is scheduled to meet Monday to discuss whether to order the sheriff to open the gates against the wishes of Forest Service officials, who have argued that the fence is needed to protect the Agua Chiquita riparian area and habitat for the New Mexico meadow jumping mouse.

Otero County Sheriff Benny House said he worries that the increasingly tense situation could erupt into a Nevada-style melee between ranchers and federal agents.

“What’s going to happen here is that we could end up with a Bundy situation,” said Sheriff House, referring to Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s standoff with the Bureau of Land Management. “Hopefully, we can resolve it without it getting out of hand.”

In another display of unrest in the West over federal land policy, about 50 people drove all-terrain vehicles Saturday into Recapture Canyon in southern Utah, an area managed by the Bureau of Land Management that is off limits to motorized vehicles. Hundreds more attended a protest at a nearby park.

Juan Palma, Bureau of Land Management Utah state director, said in a statement that the agency would “pursue all available redress through the legal system to hold the lawbreakers accountable.”

He said the area is the site of ancient Indian archaeological artifacts and dwellings.

Although Bundy ranch comparisons are inevitable, one key distinction is that the Otero County ranchers, unlike Mr. Bundy, haven’t broken any laws. They own the rights to the water under New Mexico law, but the creek is within the federally owned forest.

“The Forest Service is coming in and saying, ‘We’re in charge of the water and the water is part of the forest,’” said Sheriff House. “It’s a control issue, and they’re trying to push the rancher out. They’re using every excuse in the book. One area is a riparian area. One area is critical habitat. One area might be for endangered species.”

At a May 5 board meeting, Forest Supervisor Travis Moseley told the commissioners that Agriculture Department counsel assured him that the Forest Service’s actions in the Lincoln National Forest were on “sound legal footing.”

District ranger James Duran said the Forest Service is taking steps to protect habitat for the New Mexico meadow jumping mouse, which was proposed for listing as an endangered species in June 2013 after a 251-species settlement in 2011 between the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and WildEarth Guardians.

“Fish and Wildlife Services are preparing to list the New Mexico meadow jumping mouse,” Mr. Duran told the Alamogordo Daily News. “With the meadow mouse listing, what we’ve been told is they do plan to move forward in June of 2014 to list that as an endangered species. Once a species is listed as an endangered species it’s protected. Federally protected. We have to abide by that.”

Two weeks ago, the Otero County Commission issued a cease-and-desist letter to the Forest Service, saying the fence “amounts to nothing short of criminal trespass by your personnel, potential animal cruelty and several other violations of state criminal or civil law.”

The agency replaced a barbed-wire fence with a 3-foot pipe fence that elk and deer, but not cattle, can jump over. Hundreds of elk, deer and feral hogs are still able to drink from the creek.

Mr. Moseley said the Forest Service created an opening in the fence for cattle, but Albuquerque lawyer Blair Dunn, who represents the county on the issue, said, “It’s really a needle in a haystack for the cows to figure out how to get into the 10-foot space.”

The Forest Service fence runs along the county line on the side of a mountain, which ranchers say creates a dangerous situation for cattle and motorists.

“So when the cows come down off the hill, they’re hitting the road and then they can’t get out of the way,” said Mr. Dunn. “People travel up and down that road, and there have been instances where cows get hit, people get property damage and injured by the fact that they’ve basically bottlenecked these cows onto a road.”

The Forest Service used to open the gates routinely to allow the cattle access to the creek, but critics say agency has become increasingly rigid in its dealings with the ranching community throughout the rural West.

“It’s not just the Forest Service,” said Mr. Dunn. “Since the beginning of the year on a lot of issues — Endangered Species Act issues, federal land-management issues, easements and use of federally controlled property — we’ve seen federal agencies become extremely defiant toward any sort of local input and extremely adverse to allowing people to continue to use things they’ve used in some instances for 100 years.”

He said there is speculation that John Podesta, who became White House senior counsel in December, initiated the tougher policies. A former head of the left-wing Center for American Progress, Mr. Podesta is known as a staunch environmentalist and hard-liner on climate change.

Local Forest Service employees have acknowledged that their orders are coming from Washington, Mr. Dunn said.

“The guys on the ground, the ones that we’re dealing with day to day, generally tend to be people that understand,” said Mr. Dunn. “Where we run into that rub is when the local person says, ‘If it were up to me, I’d be really happy to help you out, but D.C. is saying no, we have to do it this way, and I don’t have a choice.’ And they’re unable to cooperate at all now, because they’ve been told, ‘Don’t.’”

With summer fast approaching and no end to the drought in sight, ranchers worry that the cattle may not survive if they can’t find water.

Rancher Judyann Holcomb Medeiros, in testimony last week before the commission, said the Forest Service fence was “unfairly discriminatory against our water rights.”

“I love the land. It’s a wonderful place, and we take care of it and protect it, but it’s very detrimental to have our cattle fenced off water when we have a right to it,” Ms. Medeiros said.

Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter</blockquote>
Title: fbi investigating bundy supporters
Post by: zeker on May 15, 2014, 09:18:39 AM (